Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Bully

First, let's be clear about what shunning is. It is more than just choosing not to sit with someone at lunch. It is a systematic practice of refusing to acknowledge a person at all. In the extreme, anyone else who does not participate in the shunning (i.e. who talks to the outcast) is themselves shunned. Shunning is a severe form of social control that is practiced by small religious communities. In fact, that's pretty much the only place it occurs, except for schools.

Second, nobody here has mentioned punishment. The discussion has not been about particular solutions at all; we are debating what is and is not okay. You tried to elevate the practice of shunning in schools to a civil right, and we are disputing that. (Just briefly, it is far more effective for the adults in charge to set in place a variety of practices that encourage a culture of civility, rather than punish individual instances after they happen. So your "how do you punish them?" question is kind of a straw man.)

One final point. You started out by criticizing the public concern about bullying. It seems from your followup comments that what you are actually against is students being persecuted for choosing not to sit with someone at lunch. Let me assure you that this is not happening. There is no public hysteria going on about students choosing whom to be friends with. The current focus on bullying is about physical violence and prolonged and extreme verbal abuse.

But the behavior of urging others to shun is a behavior that can, and should, be banned. Kids don't usually have the wherewithall to remember that they aren't supposed to be talking to the target kid, so they forget after a day or two, and then they get threatened with being socially isolated or just strongly reminded that it isn't ok to talk to the kid who is being targeted.

Geofizz,
I'm so sorry to hear this. It is bullying, just as sexual harassment would be in the workplace - systematic unwanted attention.

She doesn't deserve this in any way.

What have you and and she tried so far? What has the school tried?
Is the current setting a good setting outside of social environment?
How old is she?
What other choices does she have for where to go to school?

Have you tried sharing books and movies with her that touch on these themes?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Geo, would changing schools altogether make it better or worse?

DeeDee

Thanks, Grinity. We're on it. There is no question in my mind that this is unacceptable. This is 4th grade, and the teacher hasn't observed it herself. While understanding, it's tough to fix in April if the teacher has failed to establish an atmosphere of mutual respect.

The teacher and I are now in daily contact, and the vice principal and school councilor have also been brought int.

As for educational setting, we're pretty stuck -- DD needs to go on an IEP, which should happen soon. These are new diagnoses, and the social part of the diagnoses will be part of the IEP.

Much, much worse. Much of this probably stems from her struggles to know people by face. Introducing her into a new environment will mean that she starts over learning faces. Note she just mastered the names and faces of the kids in her class in January or so. Now that it's spring, kids are coming with hair in pony tails, and she's practically starting over.

YES on including social aspects in the IEP. These can be taught as rote skills, but have to be generalized across her day. She might need a classroom teacher who understands the needs and can give her clues, as well as 1:1 training on the skills from a special ed teacher or an outside professional who can coordinate with the school staff.

To consider: would letting peers know about her challenges make it better? In our experience peers really stepped up to understanding DS when they were given frank information about his dx and how it affects him. Our classroom teacher in 3rd did a little presentation and it made a huge difference in social acceptance of DS. Kids are at their most compassionate when they can understand and identify with what's going on with a peer who seems "different."

If all the kids could be taught to come to your DD and tell her their names at the start of every conversation, then invite her to play, for instance, would that work? The special ed teacher or counselor can also build a circle of friends program (http://circleofriends.org/ or similar) with kind children who agree to be understanding... Just throwing out ideas here, don't know what will work.

DeeDee

The problem, IMO, is that people rely too much on hyper-reacting to instances of bullying once they get out of hand instead of setting meaningful expectations for appropriate behavior on the first day of kindergarten (and continuing thereafter). A little compassion and and a little courtesy go a long way in pre-empting the problem to begin with.

I completely agree. I'm often surprised at how other parents let their children treat their siblings- let alone strangers! We don't let our kids be mean to one another and for the most part, they're not. When friends make comments like, "well, you know how brothers and sisters are..." I tend to respond, "well, no, I don't." A little joking is okay, but being mean is NOT.
And there ARE simple rules that teachers can implement. For example, in ds10's school, you are not allowed to refuse if someone asks to be your partner, unless you already have a partner -in which case you say, "sorry, I am already partnering with X. If you can't find someone, we can ask 'teacher X' if three people can be in our group," or something similar. I was worried about how ds10 would do in the 5th grade math class because there are a bunch of kids who are very clique-y in there and they often partner up for things. However, I'm in there every week and I've found it's never really a problem. Since he's not a 5th grader and knows fewer kids, he often is the one asking instead of being asked, but he's never refused and he is asked about 30% of the time. That's just one example - not being able to pick seats at lunch is another, not being able to pick teams in PE class, pairing up kids in a "lunch buddies" small group... It's definitely not perfect where I live, but at least they're trying.
We were lucky. Ds11 isn't the least bit sporty (think orchestra/math club/chess) and he's fairly quiet, but he's also in the 95th%-ile for height. DH was taller than his 4th grade teacher (reached his full height of 6'3" in middle school) so even though he was equally nerdy, lol, he was never bullied. Ds10 is smaller, but he's sporty and talkative and friendly - really great emotional IQ. Thank goodness it wasn't the other way around!
The girls weren't bullied, but honestly, that has a lot to do with looks. It's sad to say that being very attractive goes a long way for girls.

Eww., @ that stupid cartoon network bully commercial where they have a middle schooler boy lean on a locker lean on a locker an intimidate another while a third runs off and yells for help.   Well of course given the set up many young boys here say they want to be the bully.  They should have cast the tattle tale as a super hero character.   I get what the writer thought they were saying, don't be an innocent bystander, go tell somebody and get help (and they weren't going to suggest getting in the middle of it) but what the imagery suggested to the young boys who were the target audience of the cartoon network channel was "hey, there's these 3 kinds of people the tough guy, the victim, and the bystander".  They ran this over and over and over to teach young kids the definition of the word "bully", never finished a story line to paint a complete picture in a young kids mind, and, to me, suggesting that boys separate the world in those three categories while they're very young.  Maybe it was Nickelodeon.  Anyway I think anti-bullying advertising should paint anti-bullying in a better light or have more substance as far as in kids telling kids it's ok to tell each other to be nice, or get help.  Those "the more you know" style commercials where celebraties say, "you know I was bullied and it wasn't very nice.  It didn't feel good.  We can stomp out bullying" are better because they try to install empathy in girls.  
What I think would be better is a series of what to do, what not to do minis that show people seeing or doing what they know is not right but unsure what to do to or wether to do anything, then "rewind" and replay the scene with the uncertain charachter knowing what to do in that situation plus a positive outcome. 

momto4, interestingly, in my daughter's instructional program (there are two programs in the school using the same curricula, but with different approach), there is no choosing groups. Kids have "clock partners" where there are names around the outside of a clock. The teacher then can say, "get with your 6 o'clock partner" and that defines your partner. Groups of 4 are made by saying "get with your 3, 6, and 9 o'clock partners."

I suspect this gets around that partner selection problem. That is, assuming that particular group doesn't exclude an individual.

Thanks for the ideas DeeDee, and probably warrants its own thread. We're still working on how DD feels about these diagnoses. They have not been easy pills to swallow for her.