Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy "defiance" and "not listening" UPDATED

I also still vote for asking the teacher for suggestions for keeping her hands busy that ARE acceptable. Surely there must be something. We've been lucky in that so far even the strictest of our elementary teachers has allowed some amount of fidgeting as DD11 still doesn't sit still, I swear she does her work spinning in circles. DD6's teacher had to remove a beanbag chair from the room because she wouldn't stop going to sit in it (who's training who?) Seems like there should be a solution.

What does your DD say about the whole situation when you ask her? (ie not just your interpretation). Just curious as my kids always have great reasons for doing things even if their perception is different from the adults involved.

Why are you doing this type of homeschooling? just for a curriculum? Is it required in your state vs doing it all on your own? Or did you choose it choose it to give her "group" time with other kids?

Is this because she's done them all before, because she knows the outcomes, or because she doesn't engage? Given that you see the problem in multiple settings, it is worth ferreting this out more closely.

If you think the instruction is poor, is it worth having? I know you are liking the music and art; can you get just those and pull her from science, and homeschool science another way?

If you are able to do that, though, I'd say to find situations where she must sit and attend.


You can't make someone want to do something right away, but you can acclimate them to doing it so much that it becomes a habit and they do it correctly without even wanting or not wanting to. All behavior therapy is based on this principle: you can change behavior by positively reinforcing the behavior you want to see.

Put her in a situation where she must pay attention to someone talking (not a video, a real person). Let her know your expectation-- start low. "You have to sit here for 5 minutes, look at the speaker more than twice a minute, and remember what she says." (Give her a quiz if you want, to test whether she listened.) Then, feedback: if she does it well, she gets a token reward of some kind (my DS used to work for points that would eventually buy a reward). You can ramp up expectations gradually over time (make it 8 minutes, or add "keep your hands still" or "write down three things she says" or whatever).


You could ask the teacher to make her expectations crystal clear to your DD ("I would like you to sit and watch me during the instructions without writing on anything") and then praise her after the lesson if she manages it. She may need personal cues (at that age my DS still did not recognize that an instruction given to a group applied to him). This is not much effort to make on the teacher's part.

Teachers in independent schools typically have much less experience in behavior management than public school teachers do. You may need to adjust your expectations accordingly. She probably has no idea what to do and is turning to you for help to manage because she can't.

HTH,
DeeDee

Just curious but have you looked into montessori? I have a friend who has a dd who is PG and sounds similar to your dd and she goes to a montessori school and is doing very well there. She is able to work at her own pace and work at a level that is suitable for her.

Depending on the situation and the class it can be disruptive and if I saw a student doing it I would ask them to stop, primarily for the reason that that is not the intended purpose of markers. If a student of mine wants to doodle on paper while I'm teaching I don't really see a problem with that. In fact, I believe doodling helps with listening and retention of info.

FWIW, when my son draws on his fingernails, (which isn't all that often) it usually means he is stressed and/or anxious and is using the sensory input to calm himself down. Telling him to stop typically just interrupts it for a few minutes, and then makes it worse, which can be interpreted as defiance by people who don't know what he is doing and why.

The school's "psychologist" (not licensed) in our district who did my son's evaluation when he was 13 told us she didn't see any signs of AS or any other problems, but that he was "rude and defiant" because she had to "keep yelling at him to stop drawing on his fingernails."

This may not be the strategy you’re looking for, but I challenged myself to see exactly what I could get away with in school without being noticed. Room for creativity inspires me far more than consequences. Maybe you could make it into a game. “No complaints from the teacher + good grades = winning,” not playing for a prize (unless that works for her) but just for the satisfaction of success. I don’t know how subtle/socially mature your daughter is yet (to notice if the teacher or other kids are noticing her and to keep the “game” to herself), but if it worked, it could be your private joke and finding quiet crazy things to do could possibly be something that brings you together. Brainstorm things she could try, decide which ones and how many she should try, and have her report how it went. As we all know, there are a lot of ways to cope with boredom, the key is having a repertoire and using the right one at the right time.

Is it physical activity that she needs? Gum chewing was a life saver for me (although not allowed in a lot of schools, I imagine). I also quietly tapped patterns with my feet, wiggled my toes, or wore lots of bracelets on my left arm (charm and beads worn loosely are fun, wear a sweatshirt so you can tuck one hand slightly in - voila! sitting at your desk with your hands nicely folded in front of you). If she can get her hand(s) out of sight so she’s not distracting the other kids, the possibilities could be endless (especially if it helps her make more eye contact with the teacher and appear focused). She could wear loose clothing with pockets perhaps if she can’t put her hand(s) in or under her desk, which might allow her to bend paper clips, tie knots in string, use silly putty or a stress ball, fold paper or tin foil, etc. If you think things like this might be helpful, I’m sure others have lots of coping strategies as well. It might be a very popular topic – how to look like you’re paying attention, retain content, and entertain yourself in school without getting into trouble?

I agree with the suggestions to find out what the teacher can tolerate and work within those limits. I also agree with teaching your daughter to check her work which will use up some time, since it’s a great strategy for later.

well well well...NOW we are getting SOMEWHERE!!!!

parent teacher conference today...the regularly scheduled kind...

first-teacher clarifies that this whole thing is "not a big deal" and we have agreed that defiance is maybe too strong a word here. I also clarfied for her how wounded Butter and I are from our past experience and how I think Butter has learned some inappropriate coping mechanisms. And what IS ok for her to do when she finds herself drifting,etc? Mrs B asures us Butter is not the first and won't be the last and it's not the DEFCON 1 level the previous school made it out to be.

Coloring on fingernails will NOT be tolerated though and she already suffered the natural consequence of coloring them black today...she couldn't sit on the beanbags to eat lunch! FINALLY a teacher that is actually making an appropriate consequence too! We will start with a squeezie ball and see how that goes. I asked about doodling and Mrs B thought I meant AFTER, but no, I mean DURING...Mrs B commented that even today, during some instructions, Butter continued to read a book, though she obviously heard every word that was being said so...Mrs B doesn't seem to have a problem with her fidgity-ness, as long as it's not bothering others...we will continue to dialogue with daily reminders for Butter about what other people expect when they are speaking, what it means to be respectful, a good listener, etc...though I think we will still have a battle over whether she needs to actually be looking at the teacher all the time, etc...uh, that's a battle between me and Butter, not me and Mrs B, btw

The SUPER POSITIVE news is that...on their netbooks, she IS on 4th grade math AND I got previous 4th grade math cirriculum after I told them I wouldn't have anything for her to turn in after we finish the 2 more chapters in the 3rd grade stuff. She only missed one question on the math benchmark today (obviously a case of reading too quickly) AND they have some new questions they are trying out...the most difficult one that most of the students did not get, Butter got easily, lol!

Additionally, I just want to say that the orchestra teacher, Mr Mo, thinks she is AWESOME, lol! and it seems she is ALWAYS paying attention there and in guitar and multimedia...these classes are also taught by male teachers though, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it. And in art, she is getting better about trying it Mrs Flo's way before doing her own thing.

Maybe there is hope for us yet, lol!

I image you're walking a wee bit lighter tonight. What wonderful news all around. Sounds like you've found a good match for her after all. So very glad for all of you!

MON-she really likes this school. I mean, what kid wouldn't love having options like guitar, orchestra, multimedia, art...and to only go to the classroom for 3 hours once a week. She says she likes doing the science experiments, even though sometimes they are "a little boring".

And I'm going to go with "never" to the whatever, lol!

I feel like we finally have a teacher that is at least listening to us...and the principal is going to arrange a meeting with the school's gifted coordinator...

ABQ-yes, feeling somewhat better. Of course, we have a long way to go, but I will take this for now...

2gift, that's great news. Maybe now that you are in positive conversation with the teacher you can enlist her help in gradually and kindly working on helping your DD stay tuned in with the class.

DeeDee