Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about Davidson Academy Online - for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S. & Canada.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute

  • Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update Newsletter >

    Free Gifted Resources & Guides >

    Who's Online Now
    0 members (), 239 guests, and 35 robots.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    streble, DeliciousPizza, prominentdigitiz, parentologyco, Smartlady60
    11,413 Registered Users
    March
    S M T W T F S
    1 2
    3 4 5 6 7 8 9
    10 11 12 13 14 15 16
    17 18 19 20 21 22 23
    24 25 26 27 28 29 30
    31
    Previous Thread
    Next Thread
    Print Thread
    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    ok I can't believe that my kid only goes to "school" three hours a week and the teacher is complaining about her behavior now!

    Yesterday, the teacher tells me Butter (8/3rd) is not always listening in class and often has to be asked several times to "get on the same page" with other students. After mulling this over all morning, I asked for specifics when I came back to pick her up...

    Coloring on her nails during science...asked to put down (or stop messing with) a pile of pencils, she put them down, but kept her fingers on them.

    I guess the second is closer to what I would call defiance, but the first surely is NOT...to me, defiance is temper tantrums, bothering other students, telling the teacher you REFUSE to do something, etc...these other things, to me, are signs of a bored child trying to occupy her mind...

    I'm sure they are NOT providing GT cirriculum...I will be booking a meeting with the school's GT coordinator (now that I have SEEN the school's GT plan and know who to go to)...we were already turned down for a grade skip (I was actually scoffed at and told the outside private testing meant nothing)...and the Developmental Behavior doctor even said Butter should be allowed to work at her own (accelerated) pace.

    People keep TELLING me that I need to teach Butter to just "deal with being bored" at times, but no one seems to have any REAL suggestions to make that happen. And honestly, there are only like 13 kids and they are there for 3 hours. How is there even an opportunity to be bored?

    She behaves beautifully for me, I could probably count on one hand the times she has really been willfully disobedient or defiant. Tactics that work at home won't be applied at school and I'm still confused about how exactly I am supposed to MAKE her "behave" when I am not even there?!?!

    Maybe the real problem is that these teachers expect some kind of blind obedience? How is coloring on one's fingernails "defiant"?

    Last edited by 2giftgirls; 02/28/12 03:27 PM.

    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    My immediate response would be that Butter IS learning how to deal with being bored, so please stop punishing her for it. Point out her past behaviors of true acting out in class and ask them to decide if they'd rather have that than fingernail art and pencil fiddling.

    My next immediate response would be that I'd already given them several suggestions that have been demonstrated to work effectively in the home environment that can be applied in school, so if they're not interested in constructive feedback, that's their problem, not mine.

    Yeah, tact is not my strong suit.

    It might be worth finding out if Butter is doing these things to help her concentrate and pay better attention. These kinds of behaviors can look like distractions, but by giving some part of the mind these distractions, it helps certain types of thinkers focus the other parts on what's going on. This is why ballplayers always have something in their mouths... tobacco, gum, sunflower seeds, etc. All my classmates in my military schools used sunflower seeds to stay awake and focused on some extraordinarily dry material. I've recently taken up doodling during business meetings to stay sharp.

    You'd have to observe her yourself to find out if these apparent distractions are a help or a hindrance, because it sounds like you can't really count on the staff to even bother, much less interpret correctly.

    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 868
    A
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 868
    Ok, just to warn you, my reply will likely not bring any useful advice. But it might help with the crazy-making you're feeling right now.

    I spent years thinking if I reasoned enough, rationalized enough, pleaded enough, bargained and bribed enough, that my kids would FINALLY "get it" and just settle into the mundane of school.

    They didn't.

    Not a single year went by for any of my kids (except for last year with my youngest) that I didn't receive emails, calls, appointments for conferences, etc. to point out how my kid was not paying attention in class. Of COURSE they're not paying attention in class; they're bored. The drawing on the nails was mild. My daughter drew massive graffiti designs all over her legs and arms with Sharpies. My older son zoned out. And my youngest draws stick figure scenes (absolutely hilarious ones) and fashions working cannons with cannon balls from paper clips.

    I am currently dealing with a science teacher who is very annoyed with my youngest, because she says he spaces out when the other kids are reading from the book in class. I tried to explain that the reason he spaced out is because he got caught up on a specific theory mentioned in the text about fault lines and how the continents were formed. He was mulling the theory over in his mind, because in his opinion it didn't take the forces of water in the ocean into account. He was trying to figure out in his mind whether his hunch was correct or whether he was missing information. Why do I know this? Because it has been an ongoing topic of conversation at dinner for a week between him and his dad who is helping him explore his own theory rather than just debunk it. The teacher wasn't impressed and said he just needs to know how to put those things off until after class.

    Sure.

    I've decided my job as a mom of a gifted kid is to serve as a buffer between the often ridiculous expectations of the school and the often not appropriate behaviors of my kids.

    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 63
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Jan 2011
    Posts: 63
    I have always found it difficult to determine when my children are actually misbehaving, and when they are being gifted.

    For example, my dd9 is in a children's choir. She loves to perform, but really doesn't like rehearsals. They are boring and repetitive to her. To learn a difficult piece and multiple harmonies, you have to go over and over it. She dislikes the repetitive nature of it, but it is necessary if you want to be good. In that situation, I expect her to get over it that she's bored, pay attention and behave. She does not have to be entertained every second.


    On the other hand, I have seen the problems that an inappopriate educational placement can cause. In the classroom, our kids should not be made to sit through content that they learned long ago, or that is well beneath their abilities. This brings to mind writing spelling words over and over, and doing pages and pages of math facts that were memorized months before. In that situation, it was not my DD's fault that she was misbehaving. I think I might have misbehaved too!

    So, I think you need to try to tease out what the real issue is. What are they having her do during the day? Is it things she's already learned, or is she just not interested? If you do partial homeschooling anyway, if the program isn't good it probably isn't worth her time.

    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 247
    N
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    N
    Joined: Oct 2009
    Posts: 247
    Originally Posted by 2giftgirls
    Coloring on her nails during science...asked to put down (or stop messing with) a pile of pencils, she put them down, but kept her fingers on them.

    My ds8 did something similar a few times, but the teachers never said a word to him, as far as I know. He got into the habit of coloring all over his laminated name plate on his desk with markers, then wiping it off with his hands. Then coming home with really colorful hands. He also colored on his shoes and pants at various times. He said he did it when he was done with his work, and waiting for the other kids to be done. I told him to stop - and find something more constructive to do with his time LOL. He hasn't done it recently - I must remember to ask what he IS doing instead ! smile

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    Originally Posted by master of none
    If she were my child (and my child is very similar), I'd work with her to get her to behave. I know it's not easy, but it's a question of respect for the teacher and class and setting aside her own wants and needs to comply with the class. Many will disagree with me, but I believe if a child CAN comply and it's something reasonable (not evil,not degrading, etc), they should do it. That's an important skill to learn IMO and if she can learn it she should.

    I don't know how many times I've said, "It doesn't matter if you have an excuse for not obeying, you either obey or you talk to me about it. You don't just decide you know best and do as you please." But it pays off in a child who knows how to advocate for herself and is able to function in a classroom.

    I guess part of the problem is that I don't see doodling, spacing out or coloring on one's nails as "misbehavior"...that's part of what I am still trying to figure out...to me, these are coping mechanisms for the boredom. She's not bothering anyone else, talking to others, etc. We complete work on time (if not early) and she does great on tests, so I guess I"m mostly confused as to what the real problem here is.

    If the problem is, like the previous teacher said "Your daughter reading while other students are doing xyz compromises my authority in the classroom," I'm concerned that the teacher's focus is not teaching, but maintaining authority...

    I DESPERATELY want her to "behave" but she's not bothering anyone else and she is only 8. Surely ALL the kids don't sit there like little stones and stare at the teacher all the time? lol!


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    Originally Posted by ABQMom
    I've decided my job as a mom of a gifted kid is to serve as a buffer between the often ridiculous expectations of the school and the often not appropriate behaviors of my kids.

    Yeah, see, that is where I am too...she's not always what I guess they deem appropriate. But she IS also gifted and quirky and unlike most of the others. And outside of school, she's a dream, really. Most people can't believe the problems we are having...

    I'm going to keep her out of the classroom day for a couple of weeks and try to get some meetings at school and figure this all out...It's pretty obvious to me that she IS bored out of her little gourd. We don't have to go to that classroom day...


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Originally Posted by master of none
    If she were my child (and my child is very similar), I'd work with her to get her to behave. I know it's not easy, but it's a question of respect for the teacher and class and setting aside her own wants and needs to comply with the class. Many will disagree with me, but I believe if a child CAN comply and it's something reasonable (not evil,not degrading, etc), they should do it. That's an important skill to learn IMO and if she can learn it she should.

    I agree. 2giftgirls, this is the second set of teachers (in addition to the scout leaders) who have identified issues in group settings for your DD, right? I'd start to take seriously that this is something to work on.

    Minority opinion: nearly all real-world settings have some boring stuff. Most jobs require paying attention to boring as well as interesting stuff. (If there is a job somewhere that is 100% interesting, no paperwork, no scutwork, I'd love to know what it is.) Part of growing up is learning to deal with the gotta-dos so you can get to the wanna-dos when they are available.

    Looking attentive is itself a skill; valuable, for instance, in workplace meetings. And important, as MON said, for showing respect to the speaker. Your DD seems not to understand the expectations of the classroom setting: one is supposed to pay attention and look like one is paying attention. That is very hard for some kids, but worth learning to do.

    My DS9 has serious compliance issues arising from his AS. We are gradually teaching him to get on board with the group; the newest task is that even if he knows 90% of the material, he should still be listening and learning the 10% he doesn't know. It has required serious classroom support to get him here, but I anticipate that he will master this skill, and I believe it is a skill that will make him employable. I do not believe that this will wash out his creativity or dull his unusual interests; but it will help him know when to deploy them, and that's good.

    DeeDee

    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Oct 2011
    Posts: 2,856
    Originally Posted by 2giftgirls
    If the problem is, like the previous teacher said "Your daughter reading while other students are doing xyz compromises my authority in the classroom," I'm concerned that the teacher's focus is not teaching, but maintaining authority...

    It sounds like the teacher is the one with the problems here. It takes a pretty small person to see doodling as a threat.

    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 407
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    Joined: Feb 2009
    Posts: 407
    I agree with DeeDee. My daughter has learned that there are rules set from different people and places. We have our own rules at home. We can take her anywhere and she understands that there are different expectations. Whether she agrees with them or not makes no difference.

    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Originally Posted by 2giftgirls
    If the problem is, like the previous teacher said "Your daughter reading while other students are doing xyz compromises my authority in the classroom," I'm concerned that the teacher's focus is not teaching, but maintaining authority...

    I DESPERATELY want her to "behave" but she's not bothering anyone else and she is only 8. Surely ALL the kids don't sit there like little stones and stare at the teacher all the time? lol!

    Perhaps not like little stones, but like listening children. By the time they are 8, most typically developing children can sit and pay attention for 8 minutes or so to receive instruction, and look like they are paying attention. Perhaps with a few bobbles, but basically engaged.

    From what you've said here, I think what the teachers and scout leaders are telling you is that your DD is not able (or not willing) to join the group and do what the group is doing, as her peers can/do. Yes, this task is harder if the instruction is beneath her level, but it's likely that some things come up that she doesn't know, and surely at scouts there are interesting projects. What I'm hearing is that she is rarely engaged in group settings with peers.

    All these people are identifying a real concern, probably not to protect their authority, but because they see a problem. You can choose to ignore all of them and use giftedness as an excuse/explanation, but it is likely better for your DD if you follow up and try to address the concern.

    DeeDee

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    FWIW I agree with everything DeeDee said. We all run into teachers every now and then who are "the problem" (even nd kids have teachers here and there that don't engage them), but anytime you have feedback about behavior from the teacher it is worth trying to understand it from the teachers perspective. When you have more than one teacher/adult group leader giving you the same feedback it's most likely not somethng coming out of left field due to the teacher being the "problem".

    It's also really easy as the parent of HG/EG kids to jump straight to "bored" and "quirky" as the reason our kids are perceived to have behavior challenges or other issues at school and elsewhere. Sometimes that is the issue, but sometimes in jumping into assuming that we miss what's really going on.

    Also re the nail coloring - if your dd likes to fidget while she listens, that's something that I would think should be acceptable - our kids' schools have no problem with letting kids hold a squishy ball, things Iike that while listening. They probably wouldn't let a child color her nails - while it might not be a problem for *your* child it would cause a huge distraction for my child who is trying to listen -she'd see the coloring, would want to do that too, she'd know that she can't because the teacher doesn't let want kids to color their nails during class... And pretty soon she would be missing a ton of what the teacher was talking about because she's focusing on your dd. My guess is that's one piece of what's up with the teacher not wanting your dd to color her nails.

    Re you'd dd behaving ok at home - remember that at home she's in her environment, she's comfy, she's got attention, shes secure and feels loved and perhaps feels in control. many of our kids will display different behaviors at school than at home.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear

    Last edited by polarbear; 02/22/12 11:15 AM. Reason: I'm iPad inept!
    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 116
    L
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    L
    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 116
    I agree with Deedee and Polarbear. To expand, maybe ask the teacher to give a list of "types" of things aren't acceptable and then ask for what is acceptable. For example, I think a lot of us and our kids were rampant doodlers on our folders/book covers or whatever. Find something that isn't considered distracting. I do think some kids want to be doing things that are physical to focus. I've been told my DD11 would constantly draw things during lessons when she was in Montessori. They would think she wasn't listening but she would end up retaining the lesson. Sometimes she doodled a picture that represented the lesson. I figured it was more personality than anything vs being gifted.

    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    Personally, I don't think gifted and bored is an excuse for disrespectful or defiant behavior. This is a problem that needs to be approached from both sides, the teacher who may need to find more engaging and/or challenging material and the child who will have to learn to cope with being bored at times. As a pp mentioned, there will be times in life when they will be bored, I'd also like to know what job or field to go into where I would never suffer from boredom. lol

    I also agree that this seems to be a reoccuring problem in group settings that may need to be further looked into.

    Last edited by mountainmom2011; 02/22/12 12:39 PM.
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    well...how you MAKE someone FAKE like they are listening and paying attention in the classroom setting?

    I do think the majority of this is boredom. I'd say she's probably about 90%, if not higher. She only has 3 chapters of the math book to finish and that was supposed to last the whole school year...she's not even finding the science experiments interesting anymore. Please bear in mind that I"m sure she is getting minimum standard instruction (not GT level) and our state is 46th our of 50 for standards. It's so sadly low...

    But, even with boredom factored in or out, I agree that she needs to learn how to play the game...but HOW...HOW do you, not only teach them to do it, but make them WANT to do it?

    According to developmental behavior, she doesn't have any AS, autism, ADHD, ODD...nothing...no "reason" to do this except boredom or willfullness.

    Personally, I feel like, if the teacher thinks this is a problem, the teacher should be addressing it in the classroom, but there don't seem to be any consequences for this...it's like at the last school, I feel like the teachers are tattling on her and expect me to do something about it, but I don't know what...


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 868
    A
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 868
    Originally Posted by 2giftgirls
    But, even with boredom factored in or out, I agree that she needs to learn how to play the game...but HOW...HOW do you, not only teach them to do it, but make them WANT to do it?

    This is what I was addressing with my reply to you. Not that I don't think kids should be respectful, but what about coloring nails quietly in class isn't respectful. That seems a lot more about the teacher wanting to control the class rather than teach the class.

    When I doodled in class, it was for one of two reasons - either I was bored out of my mind or I was concentrating on what was being said and the doodling helped drown out other distractions. Your child can't be the first kid to doodle or draw on herself in class, and it's not the same as disrupting class.

    The only way I could find to work with my kids was to find "currency" that mattered to them. I either offered a bribe of sorts for something that wanted to work towards or threatened to remove something they dearly loved in order to get them to work on compliant behavior. For my kids, the only currency that worked was allowing them to be part of the sports team after school that they loved or threatening that they had to take a break if their grades or behavior reports suffered. But that's lousy, too, because it takes one thing they love and builds negative feelings around it.

    Some kids learn to play the game better than others, and the more we can teach our kids to adapt to their surroundings, the easier some situations will be for them. But I also have made peace with the fact that within certain limits, I'm ok with my kids not conforming to everything. That will also serve them well in life - the people who ask why not, why shouldn't we try, why can't we try ... they make new things happen.

    So, for me, it's a balance. Fight the destructive, hurtful behaviors, teach them to cope as best they can, and then advocate with the teacher to make accommodations that allows everyone to get through the day.


    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    so far, I have not discovered the currency in all these years. Even taking away the iPad only works for a few days...NOTHING seems to really stick, at this point, I can only figure that she must LIKE for me to be an angry screaming mean mom. She must LIKE that attention...

    I feel like I'm on a crazy seesaw, trying to balance "is she bored?" with "why is she such a pain in the butt?". I just don't understand why she can't accept that everything would be so much better if she would just "go with the flow".

    What is wrong with my child????


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    I'm pretty sure she understands the expectations...I'm not sure what you mean about strategies? For dealing with the boredom? So far, what I'm hearing in all situations is that people expect her to just sit there. Which isn't really helpful. If you tell her to "entertain herself in her head" she gets in trouble because she's gone too far in there, kwim? No teacher has wanted to LET her have any sort of "fidget" or anything. I can't seem to get any kind of accomodations...

    There also seems to be no consequences in the classroom. Even at the last school, when they feel they can't deal with a kid, they would just send them to the counseling office, then call parents...I don't even know that they are really allowed to do anything.

    I'm sorry, because I know I sound like one of those "wah wha wah" people today but this is just...I mean, I just DO NOT understand and I feel like we have tried so many things and NOTHING is working.


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 1,898
    C
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    C
    Joined: Sep 2008
    Posts: 1,898
    Something that used to (OK, still does) help me in boring being-taught situations is to put myself in the shoes of the teacher. What is she trying to convey? How else might she have decided to do it? Why has she decided to do it this way? How would I do it instead? What would the advantages and disadvantages of my way be? Quite challenging to do that in real time while still keeping up with what *is* being said, and you have to pay attention to do it, even if it isn't quite the kind of attention that's expected :-)

    I also think, she's 8, she doesn't have a disability that makes her less able to do this than other children; she's perfectly capable of sitting and (genuinely, not faking!) paying attention to things that aren't all that interesting for a few hours. Tell her she has to do this, and if she doesn't do it show your displeasure as you would for any other misbehaviour. The issue here seems to me to be that you don't wholeheartedly think it's misbehaviour. You have to make up your mind; if you really think it isn't, you either let the school deal with it however they like or take her out; if you think it is, show her you mean it.


    Email: my username, followed by 2, at google's mail
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    ColinsMum...I do think the situation is not ideal, in that she should be doing much more challenging work. I still don't think I would characterize the behaviors themselves as defiant...

    But I DO feel like she could at least fake it and I cannot possibly fathom why she won't do that. And I don't know how much more strongly I could make my displeasure known without harming the child. I actually think the school SHOULD deal with it, but, like I said, there seems to be no real lasting consequences in the classroom. And we don't have to deal with these things in the home setting because she is quite compliant with me...

    She's NOT at all interested in what is going on in the classroom, what the teacher is saying, etc.

    I made a comment once that it was like she had already done a cost/benefit analysis of her whole life and has decided that its ok with her to suffer the consequences of losing privileges, games, toys, etc. SHe will be compliant long enough to earn them back, then it starts all over again.

    I'm so sad now...I really don't like her right now. How can an 8yo make me so miserable?


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 868
    A
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 868
    I feel for you right now, and it probably doesn't help a lot to say that this, too, shall pass.

    I think part of what stopped the crazy-making for me (not all of it, as I still have days of huge frustration) are these:

    Stop trying to control or change things over which you have no control. You cannot and will never make your daughter WANT something. You just can't make another person desire to do or not to do something. All you can do is what is within your power - draw firm boundaries, apply consequences predictably, and do your best to take your own emotion out of the dynamic. You can't make the school change their policies (but you can sure as heck try to apply pressure), so you have to learn to cope within them. If it isn't where you can cope, then maybe it's not worth having her there.

    Accept that what applies to 99.9% of the kids and what works on them may not ever work on your child. That doesn't mean anything at all is wrong with her, and if she thinks her mother thinks there is something broken about her, she will be angry and hurt and act out because she will believe the one person she needs to be in her corner isn't. That doesn't mean you make excuses or let slide bad behavior. What it means is that you do everything within your power to empathize with her struggles and how she thinks and what makes her tick. The biggest struggle of parenting my children has come from the fact that what motivated me as a kid is nothing like what motivates them. I had to finally accept that two of the three were never going to care about grades. And so I learned to talk to them about what DID matter to them - honoring the blessings they'd been given, being a person of integrity, and showing kindness to others. And when I had their ear on those things that they did see the value in, then I was able to reason a little better with them about how their behavior or choices wasn't doing one of those things.

    Take care of yourself. When you need to, walk away and remove yourself from the argument until you're in control again. Stop beating yourself up and telling yourself you're not a good mother because you can't get your daughter to do what you need her to do. It's a journey and a learning process for both of you, and if you fracture her respect of you or your respect for yourself, that is far more difficult to repair than dealing with an annoyed teacher who doesn't like not having her attention 100% of the time.

    Accept that your daughter will likely always march to her own tune to a certain extent. Assess her strengths and her areas of challenge and start finding places where she can excel and where the areas of weaknesses will not prevent success. And then once you have some successes, build on those by easing her into more challenging circumstances that force her to deal for short periods with her struggles.

    There are no rules that work 100% of the time on 100% of the kids.

    This was the advice my pediatrician gave me about my kids, and I am so grateful to him for his insight into my own struggles at parenting. Pick your battles - the things that you will not back down from because they are inherent to your values (such as no hitting, no stealing, etc.) and then as much as you can, don't choose to battle over the rest of it. Let some of the small things go and don't own them all. If your child is hitting another kid or openly defying the teacher in class, that's worth a battle of wills with your child. But maybe everything else that's minor isn't. For those of us with kids with high maintenances personalities, chewing them out and making them aware they've failed us yet again is not a message they need to hear incessantly.

    Hang in there - some days are worse than others.

    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 416
    B
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 416
    I have a DD8/3rd as well. Does your DD have a desk that's open near her lap/hands? My DD hides little things at the edge and plays with them with one hand and has the other hand out for whatever...turning pages, holding up her chin. She's learned through trial and error what works and what doesn't. She isn't aloud to hold any fiddling thing and she could really use it to relax her.

    The girls in class get reprimanded for twirling hair and playing with those feather barretts they're all wearing, the boys get reprimanded for flicking things at each other.

    I think they're just going over and over and over the material because of the assessments and it's pretty excruciating.

    I remember doing all-class reading when I was in school and the poor kids that would get called on for their turn to read out loud, when the teacher obviously called on them because they had a spaced-out look on their face. Then the kid was so embarrassed.

    How is your DD able to go to school for 3 hours? Is that per day? Is it a public school? How did you manage that, I am a little jealous.



    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 416
    B
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 416
    oh, dear, sorry I should have said "allowed" not "aloud"...yikes

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    P
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    P
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 3,363
    2giftgirls, your dd is a wonderful girl and you of course like and love her -you're frustrated with the situation, not frustrated with who she is.

    I couldn't remember the details of yr dd's testing and why you picked this specific program, so I took a quick look back through your old posts. A few things stand out in what I had time to look at, so I'll offer that up as food for thought - they might be irrelevant or might be worth thinking about.

    Did dds testing definitively rule out ADHD? I noticed that y mentioned there is a history of ADHD in your dh's family. If there's still any sliver of a doubt that she's for sure not ADHD do you think that might be making it exta difficult for her to pay attention in class?

    Butter's iq testing had a significant dip in the coding subtest and the psych noted that it would impact handwriting. We had a brief post-discussion where it sounded like had has many of the same symptoms of dysgraphia that my dysgraphic ds had at the same age, and he also had behavioral problems in his classroom prior to accommodations - but it was tricky - the behavioral symptoms didn't have an obvious connection to dysgraphia. Have you been able to move had to keyboarding yet? Is there a chance that her dysgraphia may be impacting her in this class? Is it possible that it could be *indirectly* impacting her? I've noticed with my ds that teaches who either don't know about his dysgraphia or don't fully understand it sometimes form an opinion of his overall abilities based on the speed and quality of his handwriting rather than his true intellectual abilities. That combined with Butter being frustrated over handwriting could combine into a difficult situation for Butter to handle.

    I'll also offer up an experience from my childhood. I think most of us here have also been in the situation in our own education of occasionally being bored in class. For me, that led to developing a bad habit of daydreaming which I had to fight like crazy once I got to college and into the working world - if Butter is bored now, just wait until she has to sit through a never-ending meeting at work smile. The anecdote I wanted to mention though isn't about me - it's about a boy I grew up with in my. Grade. He and his parents believed he aas PH. I don't know if he was or if he wasn't, and I don't know my own IQ so I have no realistic frame of reference. I know he was smart and we were both tracked in our schools gifted program starting in elementary school. Many of us found some teachers and some parts of school occasionally boring, but we came to school and paid attention or at least tried to look like we paid attention. We were bored now and then, but we also knew that it was still important to pay attention to the teacher. this one boy who thought he was smarter than the rest of us felt he didn't need to pay attention, so he instead brought a book with him and read every day. he'd occasionally talk abo it something that sounded intelligent but off-topic. I never paid much attention to him and neither did the rest of the kids because he seemed arrogant and not interested in us. Some of our teachers acceptede him for who he wa, others tried to get him to pay attention and do the class work. The reason I mention him here is - by the time we got to middle and high school, he was no longer in the honors courses and the AP courses, and it wasnt because he'd been radically accelerated, it was because he hadn't made the grades he needed to make to get there, which was too bad -because by the time we got to middle and high school and our group of gifted kids was truly able to accelerate and had access to gifted accelerated programming and classes of like peers, school was much more interesting and fun. Nne of which may have mattered in the long run - we've both had successful and happy lives -but I don't think his school experience in childhood was positive due in part to his attitude.

    I hope none of that sounded harsh or critical, I'm sincerely trying to offere up some helpful advice.

    Best wishes,

    polarbear


    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    bzylzy-we are fortunate to have a "home study" school in our District. So, it's really homeschooling but they supply the books, consumables, etc, including some teacher's editions when needed. We do the real "schooling" at home, then she has one day a week that her class meets. I think they actually call it a study group. The main draw for that is science experiments. All the elementary grades have a 3 (plus half hour lunch) day like that. Then they have other activities and classes that are optional. Butter actually goes to orchestra (violin) for 45 min 2x per week and also has guitar, multimedia and back to back drawing and elementary art for 3 hours on Friday morning! Lots of times she's the only one for drawing, so it's like a private lesson.

    Another friend of mine said I need to just take a breath and let it go because this is just stupid, basically, lol! Part of it is...she's not bothering or hurting any other students, throwing a tantrum or anything like that....it seems like such insignificant stuff, honestly. My fourth grade teacher hated me for dotting all the "i's" with hearts and flowers...and I would also do homework in class in high school, only half listening...but no one ever called that defiant.

    That is the part I'm kind of still trying to figure out, and not be someone who makes excuses either...I DO think Butter is testing the teacher a little, since she's had such crummy ones in the past. She doesn't know yet if the teacher respects her or values her in the classroom, I don't think. I think she's bored too though...

    and maybe I DO care "too much". I would actually say we are both somewhat damaged from the previous school...and even though this has been better, this complaint sends me right back to where we were before. And even though it's better, they aren't really giving either of us what I want and am hoping to get from the school.

    Then I look at my awesome kid who is learning both guitar and violin at the same time, does chores with no backtalk (including the laundry) and sells a TON of Girl Scout cookies and, well, you all know how that goes...


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    I think the homeschooling part of it works because she is allowed to wiggle or fidget if she needs...and she knows that I repect her and she gets to make some choices. I would like her to have at least some of this in the classroom. I think it would go better for her and then the teacher could get the results she wants.

    And I do really think that there is just not room for quirkiness in either of the school situations we have been in. There's a lot of worry about test scores and keeping schools open and jobs, etc...I think this has put us in an educational system that is particularly oppressive for these kinds of kids...


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 416
    B
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 416
    Well I hope you find ways to help her, testing the teacher and discomfort with writing can all be reasons. Writing is a big issues w/ my DD and other walls she runs into which is why we've scheduled more/different testing for the spring. DD has had lots of bad experiences with teachers and it took her a couple of months this year with a new one to warm up. It's sort of going so, so, but I agree with the poster who mentioned that it's the teacher's responsibility to gage the class. If there is so much flicking of things and hair twirling, maybe it's time to learn something new.

    Anyway, in the short term mention to your DD the little object at the edge of the desk thing, that might work for a bit.

    School is so different now and I believe that kids need to learn to be respectful and well-behaved, but it takes time and there is always room for growth. Even as adults there is so much room for growth.

    I rememember braiding the fringe on my poncho in church because I was so bored, and getting dirty looks from the grown-ups for giggling when a priest was especially dramatic during the homily and it seemed so funny, with everyone so quiet and all the adults looking forward, most of them with glazed eyes.

    It's all the big picture. I loose the big picture with my DD too and then come back just like you did.

    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    Originally Posted by annette
    Originally Posted by ABQMom
    This is what I was addressing with my reply to you. Not that I don't think kids should be respectful, but what about coloring nails quietly in class isn't respectful. That seems a lot more about the teacher wanting to control the class rather than teach the class.


    agreed.


    I don't think coloring one's nails with a marker by itself is disrespectful. However, as a teacher I can see how it can be distracting to other students and why the teacher asked her to stop. Markers are for writing/drawing/coloring with on paper, not the body. How a student responds to a teacher's request to stop doing an activity such as that could be disrespectful.

    When you are in a group (whether it's sports, clubs, or school) the teacher/leader has to maintain some sort of structure or control over the kids. It can't be a free-for-all or it just wouldn't work. That's part of being in a group.

    Last edited by mountainmom2011; 02/22/12 03:06 PM.
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 416
    B
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    B
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 416
    P.S. I like the quote "I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup... " I do also.

    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    I do want to add though that I work in a district that is very understanding imo of kids' needs to fidget and we have exercise balls and inflatable balance boards (with texture) for kids to sit on. They can even stand if they want at their desks. I think kids need this and shouldn't be required to be little soldiers for an 8 hour period.

    Last edited by mountainmom2011; 02/22/12 03:09 PM.
    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 116
    L
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    L
    Joined: Mar 2009
    Posts: 116
    I also still vote for asking the teacher for suggestions for keeping her hands busy that ARE acceptable. Surely there must be something. We've been lucky in that so far even the strictest of our elementary teachers has allowed some amount of fidgeting as DD11 still doesn't sit still, I swear she does her work spinning in circles. DD6's teacher had to remove a beanbag chair from the room because she wouldn't stop going to sit in it (who's training who?) Seems like there should be a solution.

    What does your DD say about the whole situation when you ask her? (ie not just your interpretation). Just curious as my kids always have great reasons for doing things even if their perception is different from the adults involved.

    Why are you doing this type of homeschooling? just for a curriculum? Is it required in your state vs doing it all on your own? Or did you choose it choose it to give her "group" time with other kids?

    Last edited by lilswee; 02/22/12 03:25 PM.
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    Originally Posted by 2giftgirls
    I do think the majority of this is boredom. I'd say she's probably about 90%, if not higher. She only has 3 chapters of the math book to finish and that was supposed to last the whole school year...she's not even finding the science experiments interesting anymore.

    Is this because she's done them all before, because she knows the outcomes, or because she doesn't engage? Given that you see the problem in multiple settings, it is worth ferreting this out more closely.

    If you think the instruction is poor, is it worth having? I know you are liking the music and art; can you get just those and pull her from science, and homeschool science another way?

    If you are able to do that, though, I'd say to find situations where she must sit and attend.

    Originally Posted by 2giftgirls
    But, even with boredom factored in or out, I agree that she needs to learn how to play the game...but HOW...HOW do you, not only teach them to do it, but make them WANT to do it?

    You can't make someone want to do something right away, but you can acclimate them to doing it so much that it becomes a habit and they do it correctly without even wanting or not wanting to. All behavior therapy is based on this principle: you can change behavior by positively reinforcing the behavior you want to see.

    Put her in a situation where she must pay attention to someone talking (not a video, a real person). Let her know your expectation-- start low. "You have to sit here for 5 minutes, look at the speaker more than twice a minute, and remember what she says." (Give her a quiz if you want, to test whether she listened.) Then, feedback: if she does it well, she gets a token reward of some kind (my DS used to work for points that would eventually buy a reward). You can ramp up expectations gradually over time (make it 8 minutes, or add "keep your hands still" or "write down three things she says" or whatever).

    Originally Posted by 2giftgirls
    Personally, I feel like, if the teacher thinks this is a problem, the teacher should be addressing it in the classroom, but there don't seem to be any consequences for this...it's like at the last school, I feel like the teachers are tattling on her and expect me to do something about it, but I don't know what...

    You could ask the teacher to make her expectations crystal clear to your DD ("I would like you to sit and watch me during the instructions without writing on anything") and then praise her after the lesson if she manages it. She may need personal cues (at that age my DS still did not recognize that an instruction given to a group applied to him). This is not much effort to make on the teacher's part.

    Teachers in independent schools typically have much less experience in behavior management than public school teachers do. You may need to adjust your expectations accordingly. She probably has no idea what to do and is turning to you for help to manage because she can't.

    HTH,
    DeeDee

    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    Just curious but have you looked into montessori? I have a friend who has a dd who is PG and sounds similar to your dd and she goes to a montessori school and is doing very well there. She is able to work at her own pace and work at a level that is suitable for her.

    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    M
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    M
    Joined: Jan 2012
    Posts: 404
    Originally Posted by annette
    Originally Posted by mountainmom2011
    When you are in a group (whether it's sports, clubs, or school) the teacher/leader has to maintain some sort of structure or control over the kids. It can't be a free-for-all or it just wouldn't work. That's part of being in a group.


    Sure, but quietly painting your nails at your desk doesn't seem disruptive.
    Especially, if she stopped when asked to.

    Depending on the situation and the class it can be disruptive and if I saw a student doing it I would ask them to stop, primarily for the reason that that is not the intended purpose of markers. If a student of mine wants to doodle on paper while I'm teaching I don't really see a problem with that. In fact, I believe doodling helps with listening and retention of info.

    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 1,040
    A
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Dec 2010
    Posts: 1,040
    FWIW, when my son draws on his fingernails, (which isn't all that often) it usually means he is stressed and/or anxious and is using the sensory input to calm himself down. Telling him to stop typically just interrupts it for a few minutes, and then makes it worse, which can be interpreted as defiance by people who don't know what he is doing and why.

    The school's "psychologist" (not licensed) in our district who did my son's evaluation when he was 13 told us she didn't see any signs of AS or any other problems, but that he was "rude and defiant" because she had to "keep yelling at him to stop drawing on his fingernails."


    Joined: Dec 2011
    Posts: 111
    S
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    S
    Joined: Dec 2011
    Posts: 111
    Originally Posted by 2giftgirls
    I'm pretty sure she understands the expectations...I'm not sure what you mean about strategies? For dealing with the boredom? So far, what I'm hearing in all situations is that people expect her to just sit there. Which isn't really helpful. If you tell her to "entertain herself in her head" she gets in trouble because she's gone too far in there, kwim? No teacher has wanted to LET her have any sort of "fidget" or anything. I can't seem to get any kind of accomodations...

    This may not be the strategy you’re looking for, but I challenged myself to see exactly what I could get away with in school without being noticed. Room for creativity inspires me far more than consequences. Maybe you could make it into a game. “No complaints from the teacher + good grades = winning,” not playing for a prize (unless that works for her) but just for the satisfaction of success. I don’t know how subtle/socially mature your daughter is yet (to notice if the teacher or other kids are noticing her and to keep the “game” to herself), but if it worked, it could be your private joke and finding quiet crazy things to do could possibly be something that brings you together. Brainstorm things she could try, decide which ones and how many she should try, and have her report how it went. As we all know, there are a lot of ways to cope with boredom, the key is having a repertoire and using the right one at the right time.

    Is it physical activity that she needs? Gum chewing was a life saver for me (although not allowed in a lot of schools, I imagine). I also quietly tapped patterns with my feet, wiggled my toes, or wore lots of bracelets on my left arm (charm and beads worn loosely are fun, wear a sweatshirt so you can tuck one hand slightly in - voila! sitting at your desk with your hands nicely folded in front of you). If she can get her hand(s) out of sight so she’s not distracting the other kids, the possibilities could be endless (especially if it helps her make more eye contact with the teacher and appear focused). She could wear loose clothing with pockets perhaps if she can’t put her hand(s) in or under her desk, which might allow her to bend paper clips, tie knots in string, use silly putty or a stress ball, fold paper or tin foil, etc. If you think things like this might be helpful, I’m sure others have lots of coping strategies as well. It might be a very popular topic – how to look like you’re paying attention, retain content, and entertain yourself in school without getting into trouble? smile

    I agree with the suggestions to find out what the teacher can tolerate and work within those limits. I also agree with teaching your daughter to check her work which will use up some time, since it’s a great strategy for later.

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    well well well...NOW we are getting SOMEWHERE!!!!

    parent teacher conference today...the regularly scheduled kind...

    first-teacher clarifies that this whole thing is "not a big deal" and we have agreed that defiance is maybe too strong a word here. I also clarfied for her how wounded Butter and I are from our past experience and how I think Butter has learned some inappropriate coping mechanisms. And what IS ok for her to do when she finds herself drifting,etc? Mrs B asures us Butter is not the first and won't be the last and it's not the DEFCON 1 level the previous school made it out to be.

    Coloring on fingernails will NOT be tolerated though and she already suffered the natural consequence of coloring them black today...she couldn't sit on the beanbags to eat lunch! FINALLY a teacher that is actually making an appropriate consequence too! We will start with a squeezie ball and see how that goes. I asked about doodling and Mrs B thought I meant AFTER, but no, I mean DURING...Mrs B commented that even today, during some instructions, Butter continued to read a book, though she obviously heard every word that was being said so...Mrs B doesn't seem to have a problem with her fidgity-ness, as long as it's not bothering others...we will continue to dialogue with daily reminders for Butter about what other people expect when they are speaking, what it means to be respectful, a good listener, etc...though I think we will still have a battle over whether she needs to actually be looking at the teacher all the time, etc...uh, that's a battle between me and Butter, not me and Mrs B, btw wink

    The SUPER POSITIVE news is that...on their netbooks, she IS on 4th grade math AND I got previous 4th grade math cirriculum after I told them I wouldn't have anything for her to turn in after we finish the 2 more chapters in the 3rd grade stuff. She only missed one question on the math benchmark today (obviously a case of reading too quickly) AND they have some new questions they are trying out...the most difficult one that most of the students did not get, Butter got easily, lol!

    Additionally, I just want to say that the orchestra teacher, Mr Mo, thinks she is AWESOME, lol! and it seems she is ALWAYS paying attention there and in guitar and multimedia...these classes are also taught by male teachers though, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it. And in art, she is getting better about trying it Mrs Flo's way before doing her own thing.

    Maybe there is hope for us yet, lol!


    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 868
    A
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    A
    Joined: Aug 2010
    Posts: 868
    I image you're walking a wee bit lighter tonight. What wonderful news all around. Sounds like you've found a good match for her after all. So very glad for all of you!

    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    2
    Member
    OP Offline
    Member
    2
    Joined: Sep 2011
    Posts: 342
    MON-she really likes this school. I mean, what kid wouldn't love having options like guitar, orchestra, multimedia, art...and to only go to the classroom for 3 hours once a week. She says she likes doing the science experiments, even though sometimes they are "a little boring".

    And I'm going to go with "never" to the whatever, lol!

    I feel like we finally have a teacher that is at least listening to us...and the principal is going to arrange a meeting with the school's gifted coordinator...

    ABQ-yes, feeling somewhat better. Of course, we have a long way to go, but I will take this for now...



    I get excited when the library lets me know my books are ready for pickup...
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    D
    Member
    Offline
    Member
    D
    Joined: Apr 2010
    Posts: 2,498
    2gift, that's great news. Maybe now that you are in positive conversation with the teacher you can enlist her help in gradually and kindly working on helping your DD stay tuned in with the class.

    DeeDee

    Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4

    Moderated by  M-Moderator, Mark D. 

    Link Copied to Clipboard
    Recent Posts
    Testing with accommodations
    by aeh - 03/27/24 01:58 PM
    Quotations that resonate with gifted people
    by indigo - 03/27/24 12:38 PM
    New, and you'd think I'd have a clue...
    by astronomama - 03/24/24 06:01 AM
    For those interested in astronomy, eclipses...
    by indigo - 03/23/24 06:11 PM
    Son 2e, wide discrepancy between CogAT-Terranova
    by astronomama - 03/23/24 07:21 AM
    Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5