Gifted Bulletin Board

Welcome to the Gifted Issues Discussion Forum.

We invite you to share your experiences and to post information about advocacy, research and other gifted education issues on this free public discussion forum.
CLICK HERE to Log In. Click here for the Board Rules.

Links


Learn about the Davidson Academy’s online campus for profoundly gifted students living anywhere in the U.S.

The Davidson Institute is a national nonprofit dedicated to supporting profoundly gifted students through the following programs:

  • Fellows Scholarship
  • Young Scholars
  • Davidson Academy
  • THINK Summer Institute
  • DITD FaceBook   DITD Twitter   DITD YouTube
    The Davidson Institute is on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube!

    How gifted-friendly is
    your state?

    Subscribe to the Davidson Institute's eNews-Update

    Who's Online
    0 registered (), 0 Guests and 60 Spiders online.
    Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
    Newest Members
    JulissaWare, endcityradical, pensionlutz, logo digitizing, Kevin J Dalton
    11234 Registered Users
    November
    Su M Tu W Th F Sa
    1 2 3 4 5
    6 7 8 9 10 11 12
    13 14 15 16 17 18 19
    20 21 22 23 24 25 26
    27 28 29 30
    Page 5 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
    Topic Options
    #123567 - 02/20/12 11:02 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: Dude]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: Dude
    Wow.

    Rather than respond to various claims made in this thread which I find ignorant, offensive, and/or laughable, I'll merely suggest that this thread has wandered into political/philosophical ground that is considered inappropriate to this particular forum.


    LOL.

    If we can stick to the observations, then we will be fine.


    Edited by Austin (02/20/12 11:05 AM)

    Top
    #123570 - 02/20/12 11:07 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    Originally Posted By: islandofapples


    If she married her boyfriend (he has a manual labor job that pays about double minimum wage), his income was high enough that it would disqualify her for medicaid and food stamps... but it wasn't high enough for them to actually pay for health care! And the employer didn't offer any sort of affordable option for them to pay into.


    The employer does not have to pay market rate for labor because much of the costs of living are already subsidized by welfare.

    Top
    #123571 - 02/20/12 11:09 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: Val]
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Originally Posted By: Val
    Originally Posted By: islandofapples
    How do you guys like to debate?

    Because I tend to state my opinions but also play devil's advocate a bit.


    I like to debate by presenting information that's supported by evidence. Interpretations may differ, but the evidence has to be there.

    This is just my opinion, but sometimes playing "devil's advocate" as I've seen you practice it here can come across as being deliberately inflammatory. As Iucounu said, continuing on a course of action with known consequences = intent to cause those consequences.

    You may think you're being clever/just trying to have a bit of fun/probing, but you may come across very differently to many or most others. Maybe this is why you've only found one person in five years who likes your style of "debating." To me, some of your stuff the last few days isn't debating. It's poking people in the eye, wondering why they get wound up, and then blaming them for a natural reaction.

    I mentioned in an earlier thread that we all have strong opinions here, and that I like that. But I should have qualified my statement with, "and we're mostly really good at backing up our statements with evidence. We don't just toss them out to inflame others with nothing to back them up."

    If you poke someone in the eye, don't act surprised if he gets angry.


    Point taken. I will have to step back and really ask myself why I enjoy debating this way and whether or not it is a good way to do things (and if there is a better and equally fulfilling) way to do them.

    And I do have family members that will say absolutely outrageous things to see what the result will be, so maybe I need to take a good hard look at how that dysfunctional way of communicating has influenced my own style.

    Top
    #123572 - 02/20/12 11:12 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    epoh Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/31/11
    Posts: 954
    Loc: N. Texas
    Catching up on this thread reminded me of this great quote:

    Quote:
    Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
    This is known as "bad luck." - Robert A. Heinlein
    _________________________
    ~amy

    Top
    #123573 - 02/20/12 11:13 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: Austin]
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Originally Posted By: Austin
    Originally Posted By: islandofapples


    If she married her boyfriend (he has a manual labor job that pays about double minimum wage), his income was high enough that it would disqualify her for medicaid and food stamps... but it wasn't high enough for them to actually pay for health care! And the employer didn't offer any sort of affordable option for them to pay into.


    The employer does not have to pay market rate for labor because much of the costs of living are already subsidized by welfare.


    Hmm. Then theoretically... if we get rid of the safety net... will the employer actually be willing and able to step up and cover the cost as I personally think he is responsible for doing?

    I remember in "The Story of Stuff" and some other videos.. how they said that big corporations simply externalize the true costs of what they do (like how maybe Wal-mart doesn't make health care actually affordable and that's just fine because lots of their employees qualify for state health care...so they can avoid paying that cost and then pass on the illusion of savings by slashing the prices on goods (but then our tax money has to pay the health care)

    Top
    #123575 - 02/20/12 11:34 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    That's true, if you solve the world's inequality at the top end (corporate welfare vs. social welfare) (debate) then they'll quit attacking children's educations as an attempted solution to the worlds inequities and inefficiencies. So in a way, it does have to do with gifted education.
    _________________________
    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar

    Top
    #123576 - 02/20/12 11:54 AM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    It's because history's unfolding before us and corporations are the canary test for the rest of us in becoming true Planetary Natives. On one hand you say corporate leaders are supposed to be good decision makers, or why? So leave them alone, let them do their thing, and hope they remember to pay their employees. On the other hand just because some crackhead doesn't make the right planned parenthood decisions are we really going to say her children shouldn't eat? All of that was complicated enough before corporations became increasingly international. Now you have these corporate leaders deciding what's best for their employees and customers and living in this global country instead of a homogenous melting pot like America. Meanwhile the US government is trying to exert authority over the rights and responsibilities of these international companies and their siblings the American people. Which is why government leaders are supposed to be good decision makers, or why?
    _________________________
    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar

    Top
    #123578 - 02/20/12 12:32 PM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    This is a good essay along the same lines.

    I've read the books he mentions.

    http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/w...american-dream/

    Quote:
    The frustration and bitterness that fills American politics these days reflects the failure of our current social, political and economic institutions and practices to deliver the results that Americans want and expect. It’s comparable to the frustration and fear that swept through the country in the late 19th and early 20th century as the first American dream – that every family could prosper on its own farm – gradually died.


    We'll know we are making progress as a country when people across the spectrum can agree what the problem is. We still do not know what the problem is. Much of this echoes Kuhn.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Kuhn

    Quote:
    that scientific fields undergo periodic "paradigm shifts" rather than solely progressing in a linear and continuous way; that these paradigm shifts open up new approaches to understanding that scientists would never have considered valid before; and that the notion of scientific truth, at any given moment, cannot be established solely by objective criteria but is defined by a consensus of a scientific community. Competing paradigms are frequently incommensurable; that is, they are competing accounts of reality which cannot be coherently reconciled. Thus, our comprehension of science can never rely on full "objectivity"; we must account for subjective perspectives as well.



    Top
    #123579 - 02/20/12 12:33 PM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: islandofapples]
    Austin Offline
    Member

    Registered: 06/25/08
    Posts: 1840
    Loc: North Texas
    I think this discussion is germane to GT.

    What role will GT kids have in the future? How will that role allow them to be fulfilled and happy? How will that life fit in with the broader forces at work in our society? What resources should be allocated for their education? How do we identify GT kids across all economic levels and help them to reach their potential?



    Edited by Austin (02/20/12 12:34 PM)

    Top
    #123580 - 02/20/12 12:35 PM Re: Coming Apart by Charles Murray [Re: La Texican]
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Originally Posted By: La Texican
    It's because history's unfolding before us and corporations are the canary test for the rest of us in becoming true Planetary Natives. On one hand you say corporate leaders are supposed to be good decision makers, or why? So leave them alone, let them do their thing, and hope they remember to pay their employees. On the other hand just because some crackhead doesn't make the right planned parenthood decisions are we really going to say her children shouldn't eat? All of that was complicated enough before corporations became increasingly international. Now you have these corporate leaders deciding what's best for their employees and customers and living in this global country instead of a homogenous melting pot like America. Meanwhile the US government is trying to exert authority over the rights and responsibilities of these international companies and their siblings the American people. Which is why government leaders are supposed to be good decision makers, or why?


    I know. It is complicated. I love ideas of small government, but I don't trust corporations to make responsible decisions and set good examples(they've let me down so far) and I don't want children suffering because their parents can't get it together. And I don't want people dying because they can't afford health care!


    I was just thinking about a good analogy to describe why I am not in favor of all the political correctness. Because I am coming off as rude and very insensitive...

    If I'm a smoker and I hear people want to ban smoking in restaurants- they BETTER not do it based on feelings or political correctness. I want them to look at all the available evidence instead.

    Because if they do it based on feelings, the policy makers could either say "Non-smokers hate smelling like smoke so we should ban it" or "Smokers might feel bad and like social pariahs about their decision to smoke if we ban it and it is their right to choose how to live!"

    But if the policy makers simply choose to use statistics and the evidence from well-run studies and avoid being PC or considering the feelings of individuals very much, then they'd likely come to the conclusion that secondhand smoke endangers the health of bystanders. And so the reasonable decision would be to ban smoking in public places filled with lots of people.

    Smokers can't argue with it and neither can non-smokers. Because it doesn't matter how they feel about it.

    (You can obviously take "the good of the community" way too far and then completely destroy the rights of individuals, but I only support the rights of individuals if they don't take away the rights of others. Deciding what those rights are and all of that is tricky, of course, and is the root of the problem here.

    Individuals may have a right to smoke in their own home if they feel like it, but should the people in power accept it as a valid lifestyle choice even if we know that it increases medical costs and can affect growing young children living at home?)

    The thing is, it really depends more on what is fashionable at the moment than on whatever the science or statistics say at any given time. And that is why I don't like how much political correctness plays into how things are done.
    Edit: However...as mentioned above, the fact that the scientific community even doesn't always agree with itself kind of does put a wrench in my point.


    Edited by islandofapples (02/20/12 12:43 PM)

    Top
    Page 5 of 7 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >


    Moderator:  M-Moderator 
    Recent Posts
    The ultimate brag thread
    by Eagle Mum
    11/22/22 02:19 AM
    Gifted Adults: Living with Emotional Intensity
    by indigo
    11/19/22 12:23 PM
    Understanding testing!
    by Klangedin
    11/13/22 06:35 AM
    Gift ideas Holiday 2022!
    by indigo
    11/10/22 03:19 AM
    Classroom support for advanced reader
    by indigo
    11/10/22 02:58 AM
    Davidson Institute Twitter