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    #12211 - 03/20/08 01:55 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: incogneato]
    PhysicistDave
    Unregistered


    incogneato,

    No, it was not "condescending." Merely calling it "condescending" does not make it so!

    I think if you check back, you will find that I merely have responded specifically to posts that gratuitously insulted me -- as you just gratuitously did. I certainly have not simply aimed a string of posts at someone who was not directing posts to me. It is kind of sensible to respond to a post directed explicitly to me! To call that beating a dead horse is simply insulting

    Personally, these gratuitous insults do not seem to bother me as much as they do some people, but, yes, I do actually feel entitled to respond to gratuitous and false personal insults, such as yours.

    You are rude.

    And, more significantly, there is a real and interesting question of substance here: does the hothouse environment of traditional schooling, in which kids spend over a thousand hours a year with kids almost exactly their own age, not exactly the environment in which most humans have traditionally lived, cause people to grow up with an over-sensitivity to social peer-group pressures?

    That was the original question I was raising as a general point, not directed at anyone here personally and one or two people happened to get personally upset about the matter!

    One does not have to be a psychotherapist to suspect that this rather peculiar over-reaction does reveal something about the general question, and that, I think, is quite interesting.

    Incidentally, I am not, of course, by any means the first person to have realized this effect that the schooling experience has on so many people's emotional and psychological development. For example, Grace Palladino alludes to it in her study "Teenagers": she is making no connection to "homeschooling" but just noting the social-psychological dynamics that are created in the schools.

    Social psychology (e.g., Milgram's famed "Obedience to Authority" study, Zimbardo's well-known "Stanford prison experiment," etc.) is rather interesting, although it does tend to produce negative emotional reactions in some people!

    Dave

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    #12213 - 03/20/08 01:58 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: ]
    incogneato Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/25/07
    Posts: 2231
    Loc: up in my head.......
    .


    Edited by incogneato (03/20/08 05:29 PM)

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    #12222 - 03/20/08 02:16 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: Lorel]
    PhysicistDave
    Unregistered


    Ah, Lorel!

    As I mentioned to incogneato, I do feel an obligation to respond to someone, such as Kriston or incogneato herself, who directs a post explicitly to me that is gratuitously and falsely personally insulting.

    But I do see your point.

    My larger concern here, which is an issue on which indeed I have never throughout my life shown an ability to let go, is the issue of open and free discussion. My original point, which had nothing to do with Kriston at all personally was, as I said earlier:
    > does the hothouse environment of traditional schooling, in which kids spend over a thousand hours a year with kids almost exactly their own age, not exactly the environment in which most humans have traditionally lived, cause people to grow up with an over-sensitivity to social peer-group pressures?

    Kriston managed to personalize that general issue and, when I responded to her use of personalization to express her disagreement with my general point, she tried to turn the matter into pretending that I had personally attacked her and thereby prevent me from responding effectively to her points.

    That is bullying.

    I’ve seen this happen again and again over the decades in discussions having to do with politics, religion, education, ethics, feminism, environmentalism, and, once or twice, even science and engineering!

    We all know how it works: if you criticize Barack Obama or Rev. Jeremiah Wright (I kind of like Obama, and, in many ways, even Rev. Wright), you are insulting me personally! How dare you! How can you be so condescending as to question my political judgments! You must retract your condescending remarks! And if you continue to criticize Wright or Obama further, you will be continuing to condescendingly insult me!

    Etc.

    We all know the game – by now, it has been perfected by conservatives and liberals, by homeschoolers and public-schoolers, by evangelicals and atheists, etc.

    But it is bullying, nonetheless.

    No doubt to fail to knuckle under to such bullying is indeed beating a dead horse. But I fear that is just in ineradicable character trait that I possess. As my parents will ruefully testify, my passion for freedom of speech, and my antipathy to attempts by any means to limit open speech, go back to about the time I learned to speak.

    No doubt Kriston cannot help her defensiveness about defensiveness and, in the same way, I fear I can do nothing at all about my defensiveness about freedom of speech.

    All the best,

    Dave

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    #12223 - 03/20/08 02:21 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: incogneato]
    PhysicistDave
    Unregistered


    incogneato wrote to me:
    >And you're an idiot

    I merely responded to an insulting post that you directed to me and explained politely that I thought your post insulting me was rude. I did not initiate any exchange or insults with you at all; you chose to insult me.

    And just for the record, I do not think you or anyone else here is an "idiot."

    But thank you for your comment. I hope you will leave your post up and not edit it out in a cooler moment.

    All the best,

    Dave

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    #12225 - 03/20/08 03:01 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: incogneato]
    PhysicistDave
    Unregistered


    Ah, incogneato!

    You chose to edit your comment, after all. What a shame.

    It was so nice and pithy when it merely said to me:
    >And you're an idiot

    No one here is a victim. But you did choose to post a message to me, not in response to anything I had posted to or about you, that gratuitously insulted me. I simply pointed ouot politely that your doing so was rude.

    It indeed was.

    That's not playing the victim -- it is merely responding politely to your unsolicited insults.

    This is all rather silly, but I think it does demonstrate very nicely my original post pointing out the negative effects that the predominant mode of socialization in our society has on the emotional and psychological development of so many who mature (or fail to mature) in our society.

    I certainly do not claim to be a "victim,” but I do think your and Kriston’s statements do nicely illustrate my earlier point about how “personalizing” an issue can be used to bully people and attempt to silence them. Of course, sometimes this does not work.

    All the best,

    Dave

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    #12227 - 03/20/08 03:04 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: ]
    incogneato Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/25/07
    Posts: 2231
    Loc: up in my head.......
    Okay, Hector Projector.

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    #12231 - 03/20/08 03:20 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: incogneato]
    Kriston Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/19/07
    Posts: 6145
    Loc: Midwest
    My last post to you, Dave:

    YOU'RE being silenced?

    How many lines of text have you written in your silence compared to the number I've written as you keep invoking my name?

    Clearly you are free to say what you like. Have at it!

    I'm out.
    _________________________
    Kriston

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    #12234 - 03/20/08 03:27 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: OHGrandma]
    PhysicistDave
    Unregistered


    OHGrandma,

    I’m with you a hundred percent. As I think I’ve now made clear, I’m a quite impassioned defender of free and open discussion, and, even though I disagree strongly with traditional Christian beliefs, I am deeply appalled by attempts to limit Christians’ freedom of expression.

    When I was in public high school, our sophomore English teacher (a brilliant teacher – the best I’ve ever had) assigned the book of Job in the OT and also MacLeish’s play “JB,” and we compared and contrasted the two different presentations of the same material. The teacher, I suspect, was an agnostic, and some of us in the class were agnostics, deists, atheists, etc. But the teacher explained quite clearly that we were not discussing whether Job was true (I doubt that many Christians even care whether Job is literally true or simply a parable) but merely looking at the larger questions raised by the book and how these questions were also addressed by Archibald MacLeish.

    No one complained.

    I mentioned this a few months ago to a friend who is a teacher in one of the better local public high schools. John told me that there is no way he could do this today.

    I have also been told by some friends who work in the public schools and who are responsible for overseeing “church-state” issues that they can approve using school funds to purchase a copy of the Holy Quran, but not a copy of the Bible!

    Something is very wrong.

    You wrote:
    >I mean things like my GS8, then 6, was told he could not read his Bible in school. Are you all OK with censorship, as long as the book being censored is one you wouldn't read?

    I have to admit, that, if my kids were in that school, even though we are atheists, I’d send them to school with a copy of the Bible (after all, everyone should know the Bible – it’s part of our common cultural heritage) and, when they were ordered not to read it, I’d call the ACLU and force a test case.

    I don’t like confrontation, but the price of liberty is indeed eternal vigilance.

    Frankly, I’m not sure even how offensive the “filth” and “stink rubbing off” comments were. They would certainly cause anyone to be taken aback, but I would have used them as a somewhat unconventional conversational opener and found out what the evangelical Christian’s real beef with that school was. Maybe she was just misinformed and thought they were teaching all the children to be witches, but maybe she had some serious points that she could have presented rather than letting the conversation end with the rather inarticulate word “filth.”

    As the ACLU likes to see, the solution to “wrong” speech is more speech. To connect it the original topic of this thread, far too many Americans have allowed their own misguided “defensiveness” to serve as an excuse for limiting free and open discussion.

    That’s wrong and needs to be energetically resisted by all decent folks of all religious and political persuasions.

    You wrote:
    >OK, off my soapbox…

    Hey, keep that “soapbox” handy. It’s the truest symbol, even better than Old Glory herself, of what America is really all about!

    All the best,

    Dave

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    #12239 - 03/20/08 03:41 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: Kriston]
    PhysicistDave
    Unregistered


    Kriston,

    Me silenced? Nope. Not a chance. Hundreds have tried, none has ever succeeded.

    No, no one has silenced me and I'm not a victim. I hope that's clear. I have been insulted in some rather strange and nasty ways, but I'm a grown-up, and this really does not much bother me. I'm just not as "defensive" about such things as some people are.

    And, I think the dead horse may finally have breathed his last.

    Even though I know some people are offended by "open and frank discussions," I really do think this has been illuminating on the issues of socialization in contemporary America and the resulting widespread and bizarre "defensiveness" that now so horribly pervades this country. As I've said, I'm getting a huge kick out of this gutsy black preacher back in Chicago: you go, Jeremiah Wright -- three cheers for the First Amendment!

    One key reason I am homeschooling really is that I truly want my kids to grow up being able to listen with open mind and open heart to someone like Jeremiah Wright and not simply dismiss him because so many "right-thinking" citizens have announced that he "offends" them.

    In the same spirit, I sincerely do hope to learn from your future posts on various subjects.

    Sincerely, I wish you all the best.

    Dave

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    #12241 - 03/20/08 03:51 PM Re: Defensive Homeschoolers? [Re: ]
    incogneato Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/25/07
    Posts: 2231
    Loc: up in my head.......









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