Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy already in the highest reading group....

So, I spoke with my ds' teacher today about perhaps allowing him access to more appropriate reading material and the response I got was, "He is already in the highest reading group, I don't know what else you want me to do"

I had suggested that he might be able to go to the library and read independently during reading time, but the teacher kept talking over me and assuring that they would get to harder material eventually.... but when she showed me what the "harder material" was - it was not hard - at least it would not be for my son... what to do? I am so frustrated. Why have they not noticed that what they are giving him is too easy?

You could ask the school to give him a reading assessment, so they can establish his reading level. Then you can use that to advocate for a new solution, which could include doing reading lessons in another class at a higher grade level.

You are completely logical - this is clearly a good idea - I am just feeling grouchy, and I'm getting tired of the fight - finally got my first one squared away - thought my second would be easy since he is not as out there as his sister. I am just not a confrontational person, but at the same time, why in the world does getting an appropriate education have to be such a friggin' batttle all the time? Sorry getting OT on my own thread here.

DS7 (1st grade) was in the highest reading group with a painfully easy book. We talked the teacher and principal into ordering a harder book -- there are some pretty high readers in the group. She ordered 2nd grade "Junior Great Books," which was still way too easy, but an improvement.

Not to be too much of a downer but DS was assessed and is still in that situation! I have given up hoping that DS 5 will get his actual reading level and interests. He too is in the highest reading group. And the kids there are reading chapters and so now there are chapter books in the box. But while chapter books in the box are SOOO simple - even less than what the other kids are reading - and no where near what DS is doing. They are emotionally appropriate but that is about it. He is required to read at home and we document that so she sees what he is reading at home. What I can't stand is that they keep using the assessment language - that this is "just right" and that he is supposed to be aware of his reading level, when he is so far beyond it! But the library what bugs me - still not being allowed to get his own books - and bringing home things in his interest (space) but so far below what he is reading about it on his own. Such a waste!

DeHe

It's sad, but to the warriors go the spoils. This article about the fight for autism services can also apply to special education for the gifted, with the added disadvantage that our kids aren't necessarily guaranteed anything by law:
Warrior Parents

You could try getting the teacher to simply agree that your son can bring what he likes from home, and read it during class. It will have the attractions for her of making you go away for the nonce, and imposing no additional burden on her or the school. If the teacher's tracking and recording the students' in-class reading choices, this could also have the benefit of beginning documentation of your son's higher level.

My now soon to be 6 year old is currently going to 1st grade for reading though she is in kindergarten, her birthday is Dec. 27 so they wouldnt let her start till this year though it would have been easier if they had let her start last year. She started school reading at a 1st grade level and even getting her sent to first grade for reading they havent moved her to where she needs to be. It is hard. I am going to have to fight this battle next year with my soon to be 5 year old. Her birthday is Jan. So again she couldnt start this year, but she already reads, knows her letters, numbers, letter sounds and shapes. The way I got things going sadly was because my daughter was misbehaving in class. My 5 year old wont do that so it is going to be a fight.

oh tell me about it! Butter started kinder being able to read Dr Seuss and the teacher was going to the 2nd grade to get her books by the end of the year. She's in 3rd now, with a WIAT reading/comprehension of a high schooler. She scored perfect on the Language Arts protion of the state end of year test last year. And even though we are in a home study program where she can read what she wants now, the teacher even admitted she wasn't sure yet what we would do...we will have a meeting with the principal and school psychologist when we get back.

The school will likely give you push back, claiming your son isn't comprehending (that's what they tried to tell me) or that he will somehow get "something" from reading in a group with his peers. Go for an assessment, but be prepared for the school to even ignore it's own results. I think the best you can do is let him read whatever he wants/needs at home and take hime to the public library for more...

OT-Where do schools get off not letting kids take any book they want out of the library? To me, that is a serious problem, that they would limit my kids' choice like that

My first grader is supposedly in the highest reading group. They don't care what books he checks out of the library, at least! At the parent-teacher conference in the fall, they gave us these cards that had the 100 sight words they should know at the end of the year- of course, he already knew them, at the start of first grade.
Still, we have found things he can work on. They do a reading contest at their school, and he is working on reading 400 books or chapters in books over 4 months. He's reading 30-45 minutes a day at home. Etc. Our gifted program doesn't start until 4th grade!

Thanks all - and DeHe, I appreciate "more ire" Ha! Yes, I suppose he can read what he wants to at home - which is good. They absolutely will not let him read anything he wants at his school - they think it is damaging. They use some kind of "controlled reader" system - first read all of the -at ending books, then read all of the -ed ending books etc... god forbid you skip straight to silent e. Your reading will be permanently and irreparably damaged. Already reading at 5th grade level? Better go back to make sure you did not skip over the "ing" books - need to be sure all of the holes are filled. Ugh.
Yes twogiftgirls - I should probably brace myself for the "socialization is what is really most important at this age" conversation followed by the "doing things that are too easy will help boost his self-esteem" conversation. Oh what fun.

Fortunately, there is a program at our library where you can sign up to read to dogs... this might be a good option - at least the dogs will not care what he reads.

mom123-I just have to say, from my own experience...have you looked at other schools? It was really hard for us to accept the school we chose for Butter wasn't a good fit, but now I see the problems that were there from the very beginning. If you have a fundamental difference of opinion with the way they do things at the school, especially something like reading, I would really suggest you at least think about finding a whole new school. Maybe I'm spoiled with lots of choices where we live, but that program just sounds so awful!

DS 6 is also in the highest reading group and in a gifted and talented 1st grade. He is not in any reading group and just reads on his own. At school he is assessed at reading at middle of 3rd grade but I don't think the teacher has gone further than that as she has no books available past the level he is at. At home he reads at 4th grade or whatever he fancies! DS doesn't like to read so I haven't brought up the subject with his teacher as he would rather read easier books than harder books. He would be very happy reading picture books all day! The teacher knows he can do more but she said that she really just can't accomodate him and their are lots of other things he is working on in class, which is true, so I haven't pushed it.

Good golly, how do they think anyone learned to read for the first 3,000 years of human literacy?

If I may go off on a tangent rant, I hate the way teacher training programs lead them to believe that they are experts. Example: developmental psychologists noticed that kids go through a stage of learning how to categorize (e.g. being able to sort toys by color, size, or type). Education people heard about this and decided that kids need to be *taught* how to categorize. After all, it's a neccessary stage! Reality: toss the kids into a room full of toys for a year, and they'll come out with exactly the same skills as the kids who were explicitly taught.

Teachers are not experts on how kids learn. They are just experts on particular "methods," of varying degrees of wackiness, depending on the teacher training program they attended.

End of rant.

I am the expert regarding MY child. I used to feel that way when Butter was a baby, until I sent her out into the world. Now that we have removed her from the problem school, this is my mantra and I am remembering what it felt like before, to listen and really HEAR what my child was saying...YOU are the expert regarding YOUR child.

One of the best things we did for DD9 was to introduce her to the children's librarian at the public library. Librarians are thrilled and amazed by gifted readers- at least ours was. There was a period of time where they talked weekly about books DD might enjoy, etc. It was a great opportunity for enrichment, and it kept DD happy when at school they were reading WAY below her level...

Indeed. And the corollary to this is that anyone who deems themselves an expert on child development can throw out everything they think they know about the subject when it comes to exceptional children... because "exceptional" doesn't mean "totally awesome" in this context, it means, "the exception to every rule."

OK, sort of an aside, but related to the tendency of teachers to not let kids go at their own pace. I just saw this in a nearby district - teaching by script. Yikes. Sounds like a nightmare for GT kids, but maybe it explains why some schools are unwilling to let our kiddos go beyond - it's mandated by the district.
Teachers balk at managed instruction

My goodness, how terrible it would be to teach under those conditions. It's like something out of a dystopian novel.

I know, right? I tried to open it again to quote something, but the site must be down at the moment... There was a discussion about how on such and such date, at such and such time, all the kids would be reading the same poem.

And another quote from a mom saying how there hopefully wouldn't be so many requests from parents for a particular teacher who is thought to delve more into a topic. I can't see how that would be a positive (hooray, now everyone is teaching the same stuff, no one teacher will be better than the others...)

I feel a burning need to defend my profession- sorry if I offend anyone.

Sadly, we are moving in the "robot" direction in my district as well. You are right, lucounu, it is terrible to teach under those conditions. Creativity, differentiation, trying to really know and reach my students, all gone because politicians, parents, and the average Joe know more about teaching than I do...

I hold two Bachelor's degrees, one in Biology and one in secondary education- yes a double major. I could work in a lab if I want to. I hold a Master's degree in school administration and am starting my doctorate... I'm working very hard to get OUT of the teaching profession, because I'm hoping to move into higher ed. Education reform was designed to get rid of bad teachers. The powers that be might want to consider the dedicated, qualified teachers that are getting out as well...

Consider this: Those of us who are the most highly qualified and educated can easily find something else to do. We will most likely be treated as professionals in another field. I haven't worked this hard and dedicated my life to children to be insulted. I know there are lousy teachers out there. However, I do get tired of teachers being lumped into one category, and I get tired of the profession as a whole being attacked. For every crappy teacher, there are dozens of good ones doing our best every day.

I'm sure nearly everyone can think of a teacher who made a difference in their lives. And I do think I know an awful lot about how kids learn, much more than the "methods of varying degrees of wackiness." Just saying... That level of disrespect is the reason that I, and many other dedicated professionals are getting out.

From the article: "District leaders say the approach will usher in universal high expectations, erasing discrepancies in what students learn and how well they learn it."

Oh. My. God.

This approach stems from a basic misunderstanding of the problem, and also of what teaching involves. A teacher can't be restricted to murmuring encouragingly in response to whatever students say, because there must be an opportunity for dialogue, and students have to get feedback on their ideas (canned, unchanging answers give no information whatever). I just can't believe that the solution for underperforming teachers is to limit superb teachers, and turn everyone into parrots. Why not just "teach" over the intercom?

It's also just hit me that this mindset is probably behind some of the enthusiasm for using Khan Academy in the classroom: a teacher can't get it wrong when all they do is press "play".

Thanks Cricket-
I think reading the article, combined with the teacher bashing and what's happening in our district just did me in!!

I guess it was my return vent!

I could vent with you. I did social sciences research on federal contracts and drew maps for a major newspaper before I became a teacher in the same year that No Child Left Behind was enacted. Part of the response to that federal act has been a movement to replace professional, experienced teachers with fresh college graduates (e.g. Teach for America) and highly scripted curricula.

A friend of mine who entered the field at the same time as me used to complain about the "Success for All" curriculum. He wore a timer on his belt because the program required him to spend exactly ten minutes on vocabulary, even if it took ten minutes to get all the kids settled down with the vocabulary materials in front of them and all pencils sharpened and ready to go. I imagine all of the students were learning from exactly the same vocabulary. I believe he left the teaching profession after a few years.

Up to this point, it has been the low-performing schools in low-income areas that have been afflicted with these short-sighted measures for the most part. But by 2014, any public school that is not achieving 100% grade-level proficiency in reading and math will be considered a failing school under the original NCLB.

Momtogirls - I'm sure I've been guilty of complaining on this forum, but it wasn't because my son didn't have good teachers. The teachers we were dealing with when trying to advocate for more challenging materials for our HG+ DS probably had not ever encountered anyone like him, and it is undertandable and human nature for those teachers to want to get to know him themselves. Once they got him, they did do their best to accommodate and differentiate, but when you have 24 other kids who are at varying different levels, it's really hard. That prompted us to seek out a school for HG kids, and the teachers have been amazing.

I think we all should remember that there are teachers on this forum too. I have a tremendous respect for what teachers do - I'm not sure I could do it. I posted the St Paul article because I believe that all teachers need flexibility to be able to teach in their own style to different kids who learn in different ways. I am glad I do not currently live in that district. I wonder how the enrollment gains that district has recently made will pan out if the scripted teaching becomes established without flexibility. But I digress... Thank you Momtogirls and other teachers!

Momtogirls - I used to be a teacher too, and I know there are good teachers, but damn, there were a lot I sure wouldn't want to hand my children over to. But it's not just teachers. There are a lot bad doctors, lawyers, etc too.

But actually, I think the main problem is the system. The system makes it so hard for good teachers to do their jobs and unfortunately provides enough cover for bad teachers to hide behind. The system is the problem.

A lot of the "reform" that is happening ties the hands of good teachers. Those of us who want to differentiate and use methods such as problem based learning, research projects, etc., can no longer do those things. In our district, every single teacher in the same subject area has to be doing the same activities, testing, etc., at the same time. This means we all have to agree what we're doing on any given day. So, if a kid has me for Biology 1, they are doing the exact same thing that the kids next door are doing. Moving ahead or slowing down really isn't an option. Doesn't matter if their highly gifted, or special services.

I have many gifted students, and I also have two gifted daughters. So, I know both sides. I know what it feels like as a parent when their needs aren't being met in the classroom. Unfortunately, measures such as those in the article are the reason that good teachers can't always do what they know a kid needs.

So, what you're left with is a good teacher, doing what they can within the constraints of a broken mess. A lot of factors come into play in making the mess. Unfortunately, classroom teachers take most of the blame.

Maybe I'm blessed to work with good people, but there's not a teacher in our district I wouldn't give my girls to. Do I like the rules, the testing, the system? Not necessarily. However, I know these people care about my kids. My oldest has an IQ of 141, and a vocabulary equivalency of 17. She is nine. Do they know what to do with her? Not necessarily, but I do see them trying to meet her where she is. I also see an awful lot of caring and compassion.

My overall point is, don't assume that teachers aren't experts about how kids learn. A lot of us are. Across the country, as the article illustrates, there are a lot of teachers who aren't being allowed to use that expertise. I'm sorry if you've come across teachers who are truly uncaring, immoral people. They give the rest of us a bad name. But remember, in a lot of cases your child's teacher is probably as frustrated with the system as you are. I think it only helps everyone (our kids included) to try to keep things in perspective.

I don't know how a thread about reading turned into this

I guess we must be passionate people... Gifted grownups usually produce gifted little people, which I guess explains the intensity of the conversation!

My stepmother is a principal at a public h.s. and was a teacher for 15yrs. She goes to a lot of conferences and reads a ton. One of the things she's shared with me was a study she read about. Unfortunately I do not recall the name of the study, or where it was published, but it showed that a good teacher can advance a child on average 1.5 grade levels in one year. But a bad teacher can slow a child down by 2 grade levels. As with many things in life, it takes a lot of good to overcome one bad.

I consider myself lucky that 5 yo dd has a really good kindergarten teacher and is doing an awesome job challenging her with her reading and dd has improved immensley. Math, however, is another story and I wish she would differentiate but her belief is not to advance in math for fear there may be gaps that could become a problem later on. She has taught before in 4th and 5th grades where this was a problem apparently. So we are just supplementing math at home for now. Next year we may request that she goes to 2nd grade for math.

Sigh. Okay, yes, I was venting, and I really apologize for doing so in a way that was personally insulting to people who read this forum.

I do want to defend the *content* of what I said, though, even though I blew it in how I said it.

There are excellent teachers, but to a large extent they are excellent because of personal characteristics (enthusiasm, patience, a natural talent for explaining things clearly, etc.), or because they've figured out what works through hands-on experience, rather than because of what they learned in their professional training.

The unfortunate fact is that most teacher training programs are not evidence-based. To the extent that research is cited, it is often misunderstood and misapplied.

I'm a professor of cognitive science, and one of the big frustrations for people in my field is the huge gap between the existing evidence, and what is being implemented.

In this respect, primary education is rather like the field of psychotherapy, where (with the exception of cognitive behavioral therapy) pretty much none of the methods in use have any evidence to back them up. Excellent psychotherapists are excellent because of their natural abilities, or because of what they've learned through experience, and not because of their training.

This is true in most fields not just the "soft" sciences.

But we always do it like that! (Insert horrified look)



The trouble with homeschooling is that once you start, you just don't look at anything the same way again.

boy you are NOT kidding there GeoMamma!!!!