Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Making Games In Math? Is this learning?

Hi all! Recently my daughter 9, 4th grade was identified as gifted. There were 6 other 4th graders identified as well. 4th Grade has about 135 students. I have had meetings with teachers and vice principal about doing 5th grade math this year instead of 4th Grade. The answer is always no. At the gifted meeting, the principal let us know that there are many options for our kids. One of them being grade or subject acceloration.

So, I was wondering if I'm being too picky. Rather than moving up a grade in Math, the teacher is 'enriching' the curriculum in the classroom for students who show mastery on the unit pre-test. The students are still required to complete the same homework as everyone else daily. DD has been given challenge homework as well.

She does it all easily. Her grade for the first trimester was a 97 in Math. Her lowest grades were 93's in Reading and Phys Ed.

So, for the first unit that she received enrichment for, she was given a paper that said "You have been selected by the **town name** survey company to conduct a survey of 50, 4th grade students. She was then to graph the results as a pie graph and find the mode, range, mean, median, and that stuff. She also had to come up with questions her classmates could answer about the data.

So, she really liked this and it seemed like a good way to keep her busy and happy and not have to re-learn stuff she already knew. 3 other kids in her class were also doing this enrichment activity.

So, my dd took it out at home, and because she was having trouble color coading the pie graph and her penmanship just wasn't coming out in the professional way she wanted it to, she used Photoshop to draw the graph and type the information. She handed in her rough draft and her printed copy the next day.

She was disappointed that the reports 'just went in the porfolio' and that there wasn't really a 'survey comittee'.

At conferences, the Math Teacher said she was concerned that DD thought she HAD to do these enrichment activities at home.I assured her that she just liked to make things nice and pollished.


The second enrichment project, (for the Decimals Unit) was to create a game that her classmates can play to learn decimals better. She came up with the game in class, and started to make it. She wrote the directions and got it approved by the teacher. As she was working, she 'messed up'...She is making 'decimal chess' and while she was creating the chess board, she colored a wrong square in black and was given whiteout. She took it out at home to work on it and made another mistake and was concerned because we didn't have any white out. Her paper was a huge gross mess.

She asked if she could make her chess board on Photoshop...of course I let her.

She laminated it with tape and taped it to a heavier piece of paper (that the teacher had given her)...She made test pieces out of paper to try the game out with Daddy and threw the pieces away when she was done. She wanted something heavier for the pieces.

Okay, Okay, I know very very long story. The next day the Math Teacher told her that she was not to work on enrichent projects at home.

I emailed her and told her that DD WANTED to do it at home and that I didn't help her. I was thrilled that she was so excited about the project.

So, no she can't work on these at home.

She waited a half an hour while the teacher was working with students, and then was able to ask what the teacher had in mind for making her game pieces. She spent the rest of class cutting them out of cardboard.

I feel totally ungreatful, because I know that the teacher is trying to differentiate and make the curriculum more stimulating for some of the kids who don't need all the review. BUT my daughter really isn't a 'hands on learner' and she certainly doesn't need to do hand on enrichment on something she already understands.

I was willing to overlook the fact that my daughter was being asked to teach the class...because she was engaged and happy with the work. Now, I feel like she is being discouraged from doing her best. I am just so thrilled she is interested in doing her best!

In reading the same day, she and another boy finished the book the whole class was reading for Giuded Reading. The higher readers have harder questions about what they read. The book is a 4th Grade leveled book and my daughter has been found by this same teacher to be reading and comprehending at a highschool/college level. When these two kids were done, they were told to ask each other questions about the book for that class.

I just feel like there could be so much more. I requested a meeting with the vice principal to talk about making a plan for DD's curriculum and the VP told me somthing about it being important for children to develop soft skills. Also, that kids should be doing too much work at home. It is not good for them. They need balance. It is hard for the teachers to monitor progress when the kids do classwork at home. (She is also not allowed to do homework in school.)

She met with DD and asked her some questions. Do you like 4th Grade? Yes.

If you could make your school schedule what would it be? 2 hours of Math, I would read a book, have recess, do some Science and the some more Math.

What do you do in your free time? Ballet

Do you like homework? Yes.

What books do you like to read? I dunno, Harry Potter? But I already read that. (She read it in second grade.)

What subject do you like the most? Math and Science..

Okay...so, am I being too aggressive?

She is in Math Olympiads after school once a week and it stretches her. She is in Ballet as much as we can bring her and she always wants more. This is a kid who is fast! She eats fast, she talks fast. I can't even take a picture of her and her sister with waiting for her to quickly change into 3 outfits and change the room around to be just right. And then her poses are forced and weird, but you get my point. She gives things her ALL when she is into them. If she can't give them her all, she quits.

I just think maybe she doesn't fit, and it's not the school's fault. Maybe their good enough, just isn't her good enough.

What in the world can I do?

This sounds like arts and crafts, which are worth activities, but she will not learn new math from an activity like this. Could she simply work ahead in a curriculum such as Singapore Math or program such as EPGY?

I have asked over and over again and the teacher is very against having children go ahead. She likes them to go deaper..not further. hmmm

Sounds like busy work to keep the kids out of the teacher's hair, IMO.

I wish I had advice. My son pretty much gets straight 100's in math and isn't allowed to work ahead, and is required to do the same worksheets as the rest of the class.

Wow - how frustrating for you and your child! I second the busy work theory.

If it is a brick wall at school, have you found ways to enrich at home? My son has started playing with Scratch, a kid-friendly programming tool developed by MIT. It allows for some fun exploration of initial programming concepts with quite a few options to expand on the software with the child's on images, etc.

That's her problem. My two boys primarily learn new math at home, through curricula such as Singapore Math and EPGY and participation in the Math Olympiad. Our efforts to get acceleration or meaningful differentiation have been unsuccessful. Having two independent math tracks, with the school one being slower than the one at home, is not ideal, but
replacing the home track with meaningless activities designated "enrichment" is even worse.

Honestly, I would actually be thrilled if my son had these kinds of math enrichment projects rather than having to sit around waiting for everyone else to figure out something he either already knew or figured out in two seconds. I have been trying to get enrichment for him, have been told he is receiving it, but I have seen no evidence.

Is it the assignments that are the problem or the teacher's insistence that she can't work on it at home? It sounds like your dd is happy and engaged in the projects, she just needs to be given the freedom to do it her way.

I do actually think that creating a game is learning if done right, but perhaps the teacher isn't quite following the goal. The "challenge" is designing the game, the strategy, the rules, etc., not constructing the board and the pieces. Designing games is a great opportunity to show creativity, logic, and mastery of the concept. But it sounds like it was not put into practice properly.

So, I don't think it is busy work, and it sounds like the teacher is really trying, she just doesn't quite get the purpose.

Maybe you could ask the GT teacher/coordinator to talk to her? And I would ask why she can't work on the project at home? I don't see any valid reason why she shouldn't be able to if she wants to.

Scratch sounds fun. I'll look into it. Thanks. I planned the meeting with the vp for Tuesday and it is the first time my DH will be attending a meeting. I guess I am at a loss for WHAT exactly I am asking for. I try not to be insulting. I have asked twice for a book list of books that are at my DD's reading level, Lexile 1210, from the Reading Teacher. She is required to read a book for 20 minutes a day at her Lexile Level, but there aren't many books at that level that a 9 year old can relate to. The Reading Teacher has come up with nothing. She just keeps saying that DD has already read a lot of books and she is in a weird phase right now. How can I be respectful of the teachers when they can even suggest a book! There are thousonds!

I might ask for independent sudies. Where she studies by herself in the Library, with access to a computer and presents her findings to the Gifted Coordinator or VP every 2 or 3 weeks. That sounds like something she might like.

Another weird thing is that the school works hard to make all kids feel like they fit in. So they don't do 'pull outs' with the gifted kids. BUT in the classroom, the same two kids keep getting enrichment and the boy who gets enrichment with DD keeps calling her and him "smart farts"...not sure how my DD feels about this. UGH! HEEELLLLP!

I am seriously considering homeschooling at this point. My DD LOVES the school atmosphere though. But I have heard her talking to some kids from school on the phone and she seems to 'talk down' to them. Like, she was playing 'Math Playground' last night and wanted the girl to click on 'Grand Prix' but DD pronounced it 'Grand Pree' and then turned to me and whispered that she said that so the girl would know what she was talking about. I have no idea if this girl know how to pronouce 'prix' but my DD assumed she didn't. This isn't healthy. She is developing this poor image of her classmates. She is always gentle and kind, but I don't want her assume that others don't understand basic things. This could create a very bad personality!

So, I ask myself, if I homeschool her, I will be taking her away from the social environment that she thrives on and loves, but there really aren't intelectual peers anyway, so why not? Oh so many questions.

LNEsMom, That's kinda what I was thinking. She liked the project. She just needs freedom and time to do it her way. I think she was getting that freedom and time at home. I am very willing to accept the fact that she isn't moving ahead in Math as long as she is happy and thriving. These assignments are inspiring her to create, think and produce. I know a lot of people have teachers who won't even do that, and I am greatful for that.

My problem is that once my DD gets going, and she wants to do it at home, why are they squashing that? I also am offended that the VP thinks that my DD needs balance...She is soooo balanced and teachers have been commenting on her ability to balance school work with her social life so elegantly.

I think also, what is the teacher going to give her to do when she finishes her game and the Unit hasn't been finished yet?

Another think about the game....To make a good game, don't you have to test it periodically? Before you make the nice pieces and laminate?

My DD wanted to test play it with Daddy, so she could understand her game better and adjust the rules if need be. She said there was nobody to test it with at school, so she did it at home. Aren't these the 'soft skills' the VP is referring to? Isn't she displaying soft skills when she prepares for the next day's Math session the night before? I'm so confused...

I am installing scratch right now...maybe something to do over vacation?

ummm...not getting how to do it.....maybe she will get it better. lol but this is just her kinda thing...thanx so much!

Well, first of all I think the lack of a pullout is a big problem. Basically, then, the GT enrichment is being given by teachers who are NOT trained in teaching GT kids. It sounds to me like that is one of the biggest problems in your situation. Perhaps the teacher was given these projects and told to give them as enrichment but she really doesn't understand the purpose and goal of them the way a trained GT teacher ought to.

And I would have been insulted by the VP's comments as well. Being "balanced" isn't about being told you can't do activities you are interested in. It is about exposing someone to lots of things and nurturing diverse interests in them. It should make you happy, not miserable. (And that sidesteps the whole issue of whether everyone needs to be "balanced" anyways!)

If it were me, I would probably go to battle over letting her work on the projects at home if she wants to. I don't understand what the big problem with that is? Maybe compliment them on giving her projects that she is so enthusiastic about and that offer such opportunities for creativity, etc. Then state that you want to support and encourage her enthusiasm and creativity at home and you see no reason why this should be a problem. At the very least this should force them to articulate better their reasons against it, which doesn't make sense to me.

BTW, one of my fondest memories of my own elementary GT class was designing a board game based on a book we were reading.

I also really like the idea of getting them to let her do independent study in the library. That would be a great option if you think you could get them to go for it!

My daughter did this with her age peers and the only thing that helped it, for us, was her grade acceleration. Honestly, she did know more things than her age peers a lot of the time, but obviously not always. But usually being in the position of knowing more made her assume she always knew more. She was never thought of as a know-it-all by her age peers, but I didn't like what I was seeing and I didn't want it to continue. I really saw it as a symptom of her being in the wrong group. With older kids she is definitely on a more even plane, both academically and socially. Not really helpful, I know, but I just wanted to say that your DD isn't the only one who does this.

As far as reading goes, a librarian at school or at the city libary should be able to help you. Perhaps classics are the way to go? The series The Mother-Daughter Book Club is written at a middle-school level but is based on classic books and talks about classic books within a modern setting of middle-school girls and is a good jumping-off point into the classics. Another option would be to use the Teacher Book Wizard website (http://www.scholastic.com/bookwizard/). You could look up a book like Love and Hate in Jamestown which has a lexile of 1230 and then look for books at a similar lexile level.

About the math projects, it sounds like your DD likes them and is really taking ownership of her work, so I think that's great! I think it's ridiculous that the school is so insecure with their teaching that they are actually saying kids shouldn't do learning activities at home because it affects their ability to grade accurately. Talk about losing sight of the point of teaching! I'm not sure why schools think everyone should be going wider and deeper and not higher. I think you're lucky in theory that they are trying to do something for kids who already know the math, but I don't think it's enough. We're struggling with a situation where our DD isn't even being offered enrichment, and she wants desperately to learn new math, but she wants to learn it in school and not come home and add on more math (exciting new stuff though it may be) when she's just had to do an hour worth of inappriate-level math at school.

What does your DD think of the idea of homeschooling? Have you discussed the options and pros and cons with her? Where do her priorities lie as far as social versus academic growth?

I would be beyond frustrated with the "enrichment" projects. Enrichment is supposed to be taking thinking skills to a deeper level - this just sounds like busy work, plus busy work inside an insane set of arbitrary rules (don't do homework at school, don't do schoolwork at home). The first project with mean, median etc sounds like an attempt to make math applicable and interesting... but, just fwiw, that's a math project my kids did as regular classroom work in 3rd grade in a non-GT school, so I'm guessing your dd is ready for something much more challenging.

It sounds like you're in a nothing-you-can-do-about it situation - we had that same situation in our ds' elementary school. We did what others mentioned, after-schooled in math at his level, and had him work on the regular class math at school. DS didn't mind working on math after school - and I can't imagine a reason for a teacher to tell a parent not to let their child work on academics that they are interested in and want to work on after school - with intellectually gifted kids, that can be the way they explore their passions, every bit as much as a child who loves soccer gets to play soccer a lot after school. If your dd were practicing soccer 5 nights a week would a teacher tell her she should only do it during her one gym class per week at school?

Anyway, fwiw, our ds became very frustrated with his school by the time he was in 5th grade both due to the low level of classroom discussion relative to his intellect, and also due to his advocating for himself to be math-accelerated and being denied over and over again. He switched schools for 6th grade, and we were able to show the work he'd done after-schooling in math and he was instantly given a 2-grade math skip - so - if that's the only option open to you and your dd wants to do it, it might be worth it since she's halfway or more through elementary school already. OTOH programming or other directions that she wants to go in at home may be more fun for her, and equally rewarding, and in that case I would continue to advocate for truly challenging math at school. If advocating is taking up too much energy, I'd let go of it for this one remaining half year.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I meant to comment on the reading issue too. www.lexile.com has a tool where you input your lexile level and it spits out a list of books at that level. You can also choose by subject.

So I'm not sure why they can't find an appropriate book for her. It seems easy enough. Perhaps you can go on the website, print the list and give it to them. You totally shouldn't have to do this, but it would help make sure she is being given appropriate reading material.

I agree that this sounds like busy work. Some suggestions advanced at a recent TAT team meeting for DS6 were that he could make up problems for the rest of the class, do projects where he would learn about the use throughout history of skills being learned by his second grade class (at the time covering two-digit addition with carrying ), etc.

These are time-wasting exercises, designed in the hopes of keeping the child occupied and happy enough not to complain, while keeping the child from advancement. One person at the last two TAT meetings has stated that our son is "ahead of where he's supposed to be" and argued that he needs to be kept from distancing himself from his "peers" even further. I feel for you.

I'm guessing that the reason your DD is not allowed to work on the projects at home any more is that the teacher suspects parental involvement in the work. That's a shame-- your DD should be encouraged to develop her computer skills, especially as that's a large part of what she's getting out of the exercises. In addition her attempts to improve the quality of her work should really be encouraged!

Iucounu...I said that to the VP...I said exactly that.
The VP asked me...so, the meeting we are going to have is about letting your DD work on enrichment projects at home? I said No! It's about the discouragment my DD is getting from teachers to go ahead or above and beyond and quite frankly, I feel as though they think I am helping her or making her do these projects at home. I am not.
She was offended. Ugghh!
It will be interesting to see if we get anywhere with the meeting.

PolarBear. 5th Grade? I can see that. It slowly goes downhill and I can see how by 5th grade the kid can just give up. Exactly what I am trying to prevent here!

Thank you so much for the book suggestions. I know I'm dropping the ball here, but I am being pig heading and strong-willed and she is not going to get behind in reading if she reads nothing for 4 years...So, I'm playing the game..the one where I sit back and wait for someone to step up. But, I will check out those Mother-Daughter books! You are the second person to suggest them this week!

Here is a link to a video of my DD teaching her lil sis about Science..This is a subject she has no real experience with. So, she is soaking everything she learns in school up and teaching it to sis! It's just kind of cute, but I wonder if the VP would aprove of this after school, school stuff....especially for the 6 year old! I dunno..:) Thank you so much for all you comments and support and advice and stories of your own kids. I do think I need to appeciate the little that IS being offered. It is the first time they are trying ANYTHING with DD and I guess I was hoping for so much more!
Here is the link

I suspect, like Iucounu, that reason for no work at home is that the teacher thinks you are doing it with/for her. But...

I would also +1 LNEsMom on the busy work issue. There is real (well, as real as it gets) math enrichment behind what she is asked to do, although maybe (probably) not at high enough a level for her.

The biggest issue I see with her work, and what I think is bothering the teacher, is that while she is pouring a lot effort in making her work as polished as she can, creating the perfect grid in PS and wanting to have the perfect laminated game pieces has nothing to do with the math. She is creating her own busywork around the assignment!

The teacher's reaction seems to have been trying to cut on the external distractions (Photoshop, laminating...). What she should do instead (in my own totally uneducated opinion) is to make the assignments more challenging not on the art and craft front but on the math front.

What about a grade skip?

I hate to say it but it sounds like your 9 yo dd scares the hell out of her teacher. The teacher probably instinctively understands that your dd has the ability to make her look stupid. The easiest way to combat this is to squash her like a bug and keep her there. Everything she learns at home gives her another opportunity to make her teacher look bad. It sounds far fetched but consider having a 9 yo walk in one day talking about something, anything that you have no knowledge of. GT kids can come up with some pretty obscure subjects.

I have a couple of things for you to think about. First you need to educate yourself regarding federal, state and local GT mandates. Most admins and teachers don't know them chapter and verse. If you walk into the meeting armed with knowledge, admins tend to take you much more seriously. Find out what the chain of command is in your district. If you don't get a response from the principal, move up the chain. Try very hard not to be emotional, just pummel them into submission with the facts. In their face. Make sure that you reiterate every meeting or phone call in writing. You need to have a document of what has transpired. Advocating is truly the business of "the squeky wheel". They all start out hoping that if they ignore you, you'll give up and go away. Unfortunately, this works all too often.

As far as your daughter goes.... There are a huge number of subjects that are not taught in elementary school. Start her on a new language, teach her how to build a Rube-Goldberg project and the physics behind it. Have her learn Origami, Chess and 3-D tanagrams. All of these activities will enhance her math skills without directly conflicting with curriculum. Pick a science subject and have at it! My son spent several months giving himself a anatomy course. Rather than the sketchy two week unit that most schools give, he came out the other end with an enormous amount of respect for the machine that is his body. Let your daughter help choose the subject, she'll be excited by the challenge.

NOBODY knows your child better than you. If your mommy gut says that things need to change, listen to it. Do not let people convince you that what your instincts are telling you is wrong. Being a parent is about being responsible for the person you will ultimately shape. Not about stuffing her in a box based on the perception of others.

Ummm...who would teach her those things. LOL! I never took physics in my life and I only know English and what on earth is a tanagram...lol..:)

I do teach her what I can. She learned to knit when she was 6. She loves to draw. She keeps a Blog and likes to use Photoshop..:) Cause I know it well and am able to show her how. I feel like everything I know how to do, she learns quickly and I am running out of things to show her...Although she certainly has a way to go to perfect some of her skills. If she could get a sound out of the flute, I would teach her that...but she can't. She took a year of piano and sometimes learns a little more on her own.

I CAN play chess, however, and so can she. I bet we are a good match. She has my DH genetic make-up! He went to college at 14, full time. Not, me. BUT, since he's the smart one, he's also the working one. So, he can't do a lot of teaching.

HEY! I did that quote thing! Do you know how long I've been trying to figure that out!?

Sydness,

Learn it together! Rube Goldberg is basically a "build a better mousetrap" using things that are laying around the house. Buy Rosetta Stone, google your butt off! DS8 and I have learned so many things together. He actually appreciates this more than just sharing information. He watches me struggle to understand new concepts and he feels great about the effort it takes. When he can, he helps me through the spots that confuse me, it's awesome!

You can learn anything if you choose to. With the internet there are directions, videos, places to ask questions, everything you need.