Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Perfect at school, nightmare at home

Anyone else have kids like this? DD7 used to have issues at school sometimes too, but this year she appears to be an absolute model student both academically and behaviorally. She has been student of the week twice and gotten various special "leader" privileges. Her work is nigh on perfect and she overachieves on open-ended assignments. At home, homework time is a complete disaster, with procrastination, perfectionism, and refusal to try (" I CAN'T DO IT") all working together to create a bad situation. She is uncooperative with chores, rude in tone, and unpleasant to her brother.

I don't think the work is too hard. If anything, it's still a bit easy, but it's much better than at her former school. Socially, she seems to be quite happy at school. I do think there is far too much homework (if she really steamed through it, it would still be about an hour a day on average, which includes mandatory time reading texts and doing timed math drills). She is at a gifted school.

may be she is getting her 'full meal' at school and did not want anymore at home
give her some free time IMO, she will do fine

What is the after-school schedule like for her? Is she expected to do homework or chores immediately upon arriving home? She might need some decompression time beforehand. I know when I get home from work I like to just relax for 20-30mins before having to do anything. (Not that it happens very often!)

yannam--Believe me, she gets as much free time as I can give her. I want her to have more free time and am definitely not giving her more work than the homework she already has! Maybe I was unclear--the reading aloud and math drills are school assignments.

She has 30 minutes to play, have a snack, or whatever before starting homework. I started giving her more time recently because I thought that might be the problem. She still really needs an early bedtime, so it's important to get the work done before dinner. Since she sometimes spends 2 hours on homework (it should not take that long, but as I say, an hour is a reasonable estimate if working fast), I can't give her much more time before she starts it. She does have a couple of after-school activities (two a week) but is home by 3 from those.

Hi UM
Reading your post, i was struck from a different direction than the having lots of work issue. Maybe the perfection doesn't come easily to her or not doing well at the new school worries her, she wants the honors and accolades and to be thought well of by peers and teachers, but it requires such self control that when she gets home - to her safe place, where she is loved for who she is - she can release what she really feels. From your description she isn't saying she doesn't want to do it but that she can't, yet you know she can, which is why it sounds more emotional or psychological to me rather than work resistance. So rather than time (although she likely wants that too) maybe this a plea for encouragement or tough love or a pat on the back?

Not sure about the general rudeness other than it being an extension of so much self control,

Not sure this was helpful just another perspective,

DeHe

How much time does the teacher feel the homework should take? If the teacher is thinking it should take 30 minutes, and it's taking an hour - maybe the homework is frustrating for her. If the teacher is saying "spend 30 minutes reading, spend 15 minutes doing math facts, spend 15 minutes writing in a journal" etc - then, jmo, the teacher is asking for too much work at night after a long day at school for a 7 year old - gifted or not. If that's the case, and it was my dd, I'd scale back on some of her times (for example, do math facts for 5 minutes, read for 20, write 10 minutes) and call it good.

My 7 year old 2nd grader is also a model student at school and falls apart at home - not so much over her homework but just in all-around imploding, throwing tantrums that would make any 2-year old proud, not wanting to do what anyone tells her to do etc. In her case, I feel it's a combo of being tired and other stress. Re being tired, even though she's 7, the school day is still a long day for her, and she's at an academically challenging school where she gets grades, has tests, is working ahead of grade level compared to the neighborhood schools here, and the teachers have high expectations of the students' academics. On the one hand, this is a good fit for her, because her personality is all about being an over-achiever, has to be the kid who gets everything right and wants to be working ahead etc. On the other hand, she's only 7 and she can hold it together and work full-steam during the day, but she also needs downtime after school to unwind and relax and have fun.

The other thing that's going on with my dd is she had some trauma early on in her life that resulted in PTSD. Sooo... when stress builds up at school it compounds with the other and she really gets stressed out. Because she's so into being a high achiever at school, she totally holds it together there because she doesn't want anyone there to see her stress. At home she has no filters - she's a-ok with melting down in front of her parents where she's totally comfortable!

Best wishes,

polarbear

My DS6 has model behavior at school. While he's not a nightmare with homework, it's clear that his brain is fried in the evening, and he's had his fill of focusing at school. Homework can become very drawn out. It doesn't matter how much physical activity he's gotten between school and homework time, he's just done with language arts and writing for the day.

We also have too much homework IMO - 45 min to an hour at night, depending on how long it takes him to focus. Here are things I've found help with the procrastination piece: letting him do homework with colored markers or pencils (takes awhile as he switches colors by word or letter, but at least he is focused); finding a way for him to do it while physically moving, whether rocking a chair back and forth, wiggling feet, etc.; skipping anything involving drawing (he will draw forever if allowed); keeping little sister out of the room with the other parent, or completely occupied and quiet if in the room. We don't have the perfectionism or refusal to try though.

I also find he finishes harder homework more quickly because he's interested enough to actually focus.

A neighbor does homework with her 3rd grader elsewhere besides on the actual homework sheets, and writes in the margin how they did the homework: shaving cream on the mirror, dry erase marker on the window or easel, etc.

Regarding the rude behavior and lack of cooperation with chores, we don't have those in relation to homework, but we certainly get them, and we have to get much more formal with rewards and strict consequences during those phases. DH and I will sit down and map out what set of consequences and/or rewards we need to implement, then we'll explain to him that we're going to start implementing this new system in relation to whatever behavior it is, and then we have to help each other follow through with it (the most difficult part for us) for several weeks until the behavior is righted. Perhaps a discussion of homework and evening behavior expectations with your DD, which contains both rewards and consequences, might help.

Quick note on rewards - there was a great article in the Yale alumni magazine a few years ago that showed scientific evidence behind the effectiveness of rewards in changing behavior. http://www.yalealumnimagazine.com/archive/index.html Sept/Oct 2005 issue, "Breaking the Tantrum Cycle" by Alex Kazdin.

polarbear, yes, that sounds very familiar, thought DD does not have PTSD. However, she has always been super intense. I have actually been skipping the math drill sometimes because she doens't need it...however, she knows she is supposed to be doing it, so it bothers her to skip it.

I would say that the teacher could not realistically say that the homework load could be anything less than 45 minutes, and more likely an hour. And DD never needs to study spelling and completes her math worksheets very fast, so for many kids it may be more.

DeHe--"maybe this a plea for encouragement or tough love or a pat on the back? " Maybe, but I have no idea which! I know she feels like we are too hard on her, but it's hard NOT to be hard on her when she is often so unpleasant. We try really hard to give positive feedback when it is warranted. To be clear, she has been a pretty hard kid to manage her whole life. However, now it seems like school behavior is really great while home behavior is on a downward trend. I might rather see a little less perfection at school in exchange for a more easygoing kid at home.

I do feel this school is the right placement for her--she says so too. However, the homework is excessive, IMO.

My experience with DD6 is very similar, and its source is close to what DeHe describes. DD6 is bored and unchallenged through too much of the school day (only two hours a day in gifted, the rest with 1st grade), and deals with immature classmates, and the end result is she does all she can to maintain her composure all day at school, to the point where she has zero disciplinary issues there... and then she just explodes at home, over the slightest setbacks. She says she's stupid, she can't do it, she hates her life, etc. She's so worn out from maintaining her composure at school, and she feels safe venting it all at home... so she does. Spectacularly.

Recently we were told that the gifted teacher is often telling DD to smile in class, which shows what a huge problem the school is for her. Nobody has to tell her to smile at home, or at any of her extracurricular activities. If anything, the coaches have to occasionally ask her to tone down the silliness and remain on task. When she's doing what she enjoys, she's giddy to a fault. And this is a kid who recently said her favorite thing to do is learn.

We've got DD talking to a counselor at school, plus we've enlisted the help of a professional psychologist. We know that the overriding issue is lack of an educational fit, and the hope is that once we address that, the rest of the issues go away.

Have any parenting books ever been useful when trying to manage her? How did things go with 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook?'

I would definitely find out from the teacher how much time she expects the homework to take.

How much of the hour is timed math facts and reading and how much is actual homework? You may find it better to separate the timed stuff into smaller more frequent chunks, or perhaps to do it all on the weekend. Can she skip rope while she is practicing the Math facts or do flash cards on the computer with quizlet.com Quizlet?


Best wishes,
Grinity

Ultramarina
Seems like the gifted schools give a lot of homework, DS 5 is in a gifted K, he doesn't mind when it's interesting then it doesn't "seem" like work. I cant tell if it moves them foward in the wrork or not, but i assume it helps them accelerate. On the positive side, it's great that dd's school is a good fit.

My niece has always been "challenging" like that, it's very draining. She is in the it's never enough category - never enough attention, never enough fun, never enough dessert, whatever, she always wants more of something and it's your fault she can't have it. Yet with us, her aunt and uncle, she's delightful. With her parents, it's the desire for attention - even the negative attention.

So do you think something changed lately making her more the crankypants than usual? Or are you just more tired of it and sensitive to it since you know it turns off at school?

DeHe

Ah, you caught me! I haven't started it yet! I really need to.

The math facts are the easiest part for us, honestly. It's the writing, mostly, that's causing us the most issues.

I should have mentioned that she is healing from a fairly major injury and is still not fully mobile. This is a really obvious stressor, so I can't believe I haven't been thinking about it!--but on the surface she's appeared to handle it so well, and with virtually no complaints. Still, she has not been able to really exercise or run for about 6 weeks now, which has to have taken a toll. It's funny what we forget to "see."

Sounds like my DS7, except he's not recovering from any serious injury. (I hope your DD is better soon.) But I am feeling pretty lucky that my DS's GT school does not give very much homework - just 30 minutes a day reading (which he does on the ride home, and no requirement that he read aloud, which I'm sure would stress him out), studying for spelling, plus on rare occasions he has to finish homework he didn't complete in class.

Even without much homework, he is a perfect angel at school and lately a real beast at home. He recently got all 4s (highest grade) on his report card for all things related to classroom behavior. I told him he should spread the love and get a few 2s in school so he doesn't save all the bad behavior for us at home. When it got out of hand recently, we started shaving 15 minutes off his bedtime as a consequence. The extra sleep did seem to help (or maybe the threat of losing more time in the future).

Like others have said, I'd talk with the teacher to see how long she expects 7yos to be doing homework.

Wev'e had similar issues. I didn't read all the comments, so I might be repeating.

When DD was in 1st, I would let her skip her Math drills at home, unless the drills were on paper, because she was an A student in Math.

Try to ask her why she doesn't want to do the drills. It might help for her to unload her feelings about her school day. I would try to just ask and listen without given advice, unless she askes.

At 9yrs. old, we still have some issues with drills. Sometimes, it helps to go on spelling city.com for spelling words, so she doesn't have to get them wrong infront of me. We also use an indoor trampoline to do drills. My husband had her do spelling words upside down on her bed, they laughed the blood flow made the information stick. Creativity can help, when you have the option.

I think they use up lots of patients, just dealing with their school day.

Hope this helps. Best of luck.

We have had some success with Transforming the Difficult Child - it requires commitment and is not easy but when I am successful with it, I noticed that my DS is too. The Yale Mag article and related research seems to really supports the NHA. Also, I would suggest making some sort of chart with input from your DD about going about homework or have an after school routine. We have one with a magnetic list of all that has to be done after school and we break homework up work 15, break 5, work 15, break 5 - it's still a struggle to get HM done before dinner as my DS is not home from school until 4:15 or so.

She does okay with the math drills. Actually, the rote work is easy for her to tackle (she is very good at that kind of stuff). We have the most issues with writing (she is good at this but it really stretches her) and her "challenge" math work, which is not at all rote and requires thinking outside the box. I did ask her for input recently, which is why we started having the half-hour of free time before homework. I wish I could give her more, but it's pushing it.

I have talked to the teacher about DD taking too long with her writing work. She spoke to her about it, and I think it was good for DD to hear that she was doing more than enough, but I don't know how much it's changed things.

This is how I feel, too! I suspect DD is a little addicted to the praise she gets at school for being a "leader" (they push this) and a good student. They get prizes and so on. Meh.

DD6 had an emotional night last night over the end of what had been a very rocky 4-year friendship. She begged off attending school this morning because she wasn't going to be able to sleep, because she was going to have too many bad thoughts, and not sleeping was going to make it too tough to be good in school all day. I said, "Being good in school is very important to you, isn't it?", and she agreed, and detailed her reasons for it, which touched on some external rewards but culminated in "being one of the best students."

I'm not sure when being "the best student" changed from being the smartest to being the most compliant. I'm halfway tempted to start encouraging her rebellious side. <sigh>

Anyway, in her case, I'd say the external rewards (prizes, etc.) aren't as important to her as the internal ones (praise, self-esteem, etc.).

FWIW, she didn't go to school this morning. We did a weekday version of family camp out in the living room and watched Beezus and Ramona (NOT Ramona and Beezus!) instead of bedtime. Today she'll go Christmas shopping for her cousins.

That sounds like an awful lot of homework, if it's just reading and math drills. If it were my DS with all that, I would just have him skip the drill stuff and work on the writing that needed to be done.

If I have a kid who's perfect at school and a nightmare at home, that would have to be DD5. She doesn't seem to pull any of the "I can't" or meltdown stuff at school, just at home where it's comfortable.

In that cases Transforming' will be very helpful. Schools can't hit kids or frighten them into being quiet. Lots of teachers are moving beyond Sarcasm and Shaming. They don't have the i ndividualized self correcting materials of Montessori. How else could teachers be expected to control the classroom except to make a competition out of compliance?

A useful way to look at this is that everyone needs a certain amount of 'Energy' to get through the day. More than usual during the stress of physical recovery. Adults use chocolate and coffee etc. Recognition and Attention (positive or negative) give Energy but the negative attention is a kind of junk food feeding that leaves the person hungry again. Maybe Manipulative attention like what she gets in school is part nutritious and part junk food. So it is even more important to become an expert at giving positive attention to her true self.

Love and More Love
Grinity

What an interesting way of looking at things Grinity. In the case of DD7, perhaps her 'hurricanes' are a way of getting recognition/attention/energy. I hadn't considered that she might be addicted to them. I understand that her behaviour is manipulative and controlling. I just never really understood what she might be getting out of it. So the Transforming book is worth a read? Is the first chapter online anywhere? jojo

You probably already looked at the amazon excerpt, but just in case here is the "Transforming" book excerpt link on Amazon.

I am currently reading the workbook, the ideas seem like they may help. I have tried the practice a bit (not really started full force yet).
But I do see good responses on the few times I have tried not to give energy to negative behaviors, and praise on positive behaviors.


http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Difficult-Child-Nurtured-Approach/dp/0967050707/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324428929&sr=8-2-spell#reader_0967050707">http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Difficult-Child-Nurtured-Approach/dp/0967050707/ref=sr_1_sc_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1324428929&sr=8-2-spell#reader_0967050707

I like the workbook version co written by Lisa Bravo the best. I think it show promise as a way to disipline gifted kids who are intense. I like that it doesn't. Accuse the kids of being manipulative and still gives parents something positive to do.

I found that as a gifted parent I was also am prone to being excitable and can be a reinforced by intense negative emotions if I'm not being fully aware. I was already a fan of 'The Dog Whisperer' on TV and there is a very funny South Park episode where Cesar Milan shows up to coach Eric Cartmans Mom.

Anyway, a great place to start is just to carry a pencil and paper in ones pocket and made a hatchmark on the paper everytime you see any behavior of your child that is positive. You don't have to say a thing just challenge yourself to count your blessings. It is eyeopening for many.

Peace
Grinity

Update--we tried the point/reward system in Transforming and I don't know that we are doing very well with it. Unfortunately DD is capable of losing a LOT of points in a very short time when agitated, so even when her day is mostly good, the negatives rack up fast when she is having an episode. She appears motivated by the system, but also very frustrated. It seems to be reinforcing her belief (IDK if she really believes this, but she says it) that she is "bad." I am being as generous with the positive points as I can without giving her points for breathing.

In fact, we had one of the most disturbing episodes from her yet over the break--she was repeatedly rubbing her knuckles very hard across a rug, and when I asked her what she was doing, she said she was trying to give herself a carpet burn because she's bad.

I am sorry that she had the knuckle incident. It is heart breaking when kids get an idea in their heads that is so hurtful. Hugs to you.

We had lots and lots of similar outbursts from DD8 last year and the year before. We discovered that she was much worse when either she was being picked on by kids at school for being so smart, or when she had had enough of pretending to know as little as they did about her passionate subjects.

She actually told us recently that she was so happy this year that she didn't have to deal with the "What are you talking abouts" (The constant question she got from friends at school when she started talking about things that she knew so much about than they did.)
We worked on lots of hugs and positive comments to help increase her self esteem.

Now if we could get DD3 (almost 4) to quit her addiction to attention - both positive and negative.....I'm going to look up that book.