Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Writing Skills, dyslexia, dysgraphia

Well, after 1.5 years of OT, DS9 finally has legible handwriting. I am thrilled! However, it makes his other writing errors stick out much more.

For example, his Orton-Gillingham tutor had him writing sentences the other day. He could not start them on the left margin. He started every sentence toward the middle of the page...even when his tutor would put a dot on the left margin and tell hime to put his pencil on the dot and start writing from there.

He did his spelling homework the other night on the back side of the paper, with the paper upside down, and writing down the middle of the page.

He also has no clue where a sentence starts and stops. He will just randomly punctate throughout his work.

Have any of you had any experience with this?

Yes perplexed, this is exactly what happened with our ds at the same age! He's 12 now - I'm on my way out the door this morning but will post about our ds' experience later this afternoon.

polarbear

My nephew (11yrs) has severe dysgraphia. He tells his mom that he is physically incapable of using the left margin... it is like he doesn't even see it. He has similar issues with punctuation as well. He is working with OT, but has not had much success. He has to type every bit of class work because his writing is simply illegible.

My DD9 with dyslexia and mild dysgraphia will usually obey margins, but not when she is concentrating too much on content. It is, in no way, consistent. Her punctuation is nonexistent. She starts working with an Orton-Gillingham tutor after Christmas.

My son will be 12 next month and has severe dysgraphia and dyslexia.

At 9, his writing was illegible, his spelling horrid, and he did not even see the lines on the paper. He'd start somewhere towards the top middle and drift so that by the end of the page he could only get one word on the line because he was so far to the right. We tried paper with raised lines and mechanical pencils with spongy grips, and they helped some. Your comment about using the back of the paper and sideways made me laugh. This happened A LOT with him.

His writing is actually much better after 3 years of OT, but his spelling, punctuation and grammar are atrocious. He does most of his work on the computer - even his math - and sends the files directly to his teachers via email. He has this funky rhythm when he types because he uses spell check for almost every word. This has helped his spelling in his typed words but sometimes leads to some funny word combinations in his sentences since he doesn't really discriminate between there, their or they're, etc.

We had added to his IEP that he cannot be penalized for spelling unless it's a spelling test, and that grammar and spelling are not part of the grade on projects. That being said, I proof his major projects and help him with the spelling, punctuation, etc. when possible.

My dd10 has severe dysgraphia and stealth dyslexia. She worked with OT for 2 years (both private and at school so double dose.) to no avail. She is unable to type well because she confuses letters...b,d, E,M, f,j etc. So she works with a voice recorder and then the teacher or I will type the information and she is asked to correct errors or rearrange the sentences to get them to make sense.

Her teacher is willing to do whatever she can to assist dd, but she is limitied in time and ability...but she sure has a heartfelt desire to help. I just ordered Dragonspeak 11 and I am hopeful that we can work on training her for it's usage soon.

My ds12 has developmental coordination disorder, which resulted in severe dysgraphia as well as other fine motor challenges. When ds was first diagnosed at the end of 2nd grade (8 years old) his neuropsych recommended intensive handwriting remediation + OT, then move to keyboarding everything, as well as suggesting that by the time he was in high school he would most likely be using voice-to-text as his means of written expression.

Handwriting remediation didn't work because ds just couldn't do it - he would be exhausted and in severe pain by the end of just a few short lines of printing. He then went through 9 months of handwriting OT and that helped soooo much - he developed legible handwriting, developed good posture and grip while writing, no longer had pain etc.... but still had all the issues with reversals, capitalization totally random and never at the beginning of a sentence, he aced spelling tests but couldn't spell at all while writing sentences, etc. Things that have helped:

1) He has (over time) moved to using a laptop for *all* of his schoolwork. This didn't happen overnight, but could have happened quicker than it did simply because he worried a lot about what other kids would think. However, now that he's further along in school, as he tries different applications one at a time for different types of schoolwork he's hooked - he's finally seeing that the laptop makes schoolwork so much more "doable" for him.

2) Keyboarding alone didn't (and couldn't) solve everything for him - it's still highly impacted by fine motor deficiencies. It helps to use word prediction software while typing - he uses Co:Writer, there are other programs available too.

3) For written docs, using the laptop and software to type helped with the challenges of positioning things on the page. I had to giggle as I read your description of your ds' spacial rambling... our ds still does an occasional math problem using handwriting in class, and he has a math notebook which he's required to keep all of his class notes + homework in. I was just helping him double-check the chronological order of everything earlier this week, and his handwritten papers are almost all on the back of the paper (so the holes for the 3-ring binder are all on the opposite side of where they need to be) plus half of the work is upside down. None of it is anywhere near a margin!

4) DS does most of his math problems on the computer now (not the solving, just the writing). He has math software specifically to make graphs and to write formulas etc which he cuts and pastes back into another program in which he adds text etc. The program he uses isn't intended for kids with learning disabilities to use for schoolwork, it's a program I had that I used to design layouts for a newsletter I published... but ds really likes using it for his math homework because he can easily divide the pages into regions, he can add "boxes" to separate out the areas he works on different problems, and he can paste in graphs etc. He's much more able to make his work fit neatly on one page using this type of a program than he ever was when he was using handwriting on paper.

5) We have Dragon and ds and one of his teachers are very interested in having him start to use it for his written work. We will be working on that as soon as we have some spare time, hopefully over the holidays. DS has tried Dragon previously and really really liked it a lot.

I think the thing that's important to remember (which we were always having to remind ds' teachers about!) is that just because a kid with dysgraphia can produce legible handwriting, it doesn't make the dysgraphia go away - the actual act of handwriting still takes all the child's working memory, so there's nothing left over to focus on the other elements of writing such as spelling, punctuation, grammar, sentence formation, writing content etc.

polarbear

Our ds has the same accommodation, and like ABQMom, I provide him with a lot of support in terms of proofreading and helping him with spelling, punctuation etc. Using word prediction software also helps improve the overall quality of his spelling/punctuation etc.

I also think that it's helpful to realize that the whole key behind dysgraphia is the lack of developing automaticity. The first place that really stands out is in the actual letter formation - the automaticity that develops early on in learning letter formation for NT kids just takes sooooo so very long for kids with dysgraphia (if it ever develops - my ds, in spite of having legible handwriting, will tell you he is actually thinking through how to make each letter each time he writes it). When he was younger and going through handwriting OT I didn't realize that that lack of automaticity extends into other skills, but he has had to do the same type of repeat/repeat/repeat/repeat.... way more than a NT kid... for many other tasks associated with writing (and other things too).

The last thing I'll add - which you didn't ask about, but which was a real "gotcha" for our ds at school once he'd developed legible handwriting - his handwriting, although legible, is *extremely* slow. We had so many teachers insisting that his handwriting was "OK!" when really, it took forever and sucked up all his working memory but it *looks* "ok".

OK, one more thing - what was "legible" at the end of ds' OT (end of 3rd grade, 9 years old) is still legible, but it hasn't progressed to "look" like his peers handwriting looks - it still looks like 3rd grade level handwriting.

polarbear

polarbear (or any one else)-
It sounds like your DS is very motivated to find ways to help him succeed. My DS just wants to get the work done as fast as he can possibly do it. If I try to help him by editing his work, he gets mad and says he just wants to get the grade he gets from his own work, without my help. I know I am ultimately in charge, but it is such a struggle every night to get him to re-do homework that is sloppy. I invested in Dragon and an Echo smartpen and the school gave him a netbook. He refuses to use any of it because he can "get by" with his handwriting and it is quicker. He can write quickly, but it is very, very sloppy. His neat handwriting does take much, much longer. I don't know whether to make him use the accomodations, make him redo sloppy work, or just accept that this is what it is.

DD9 would be very happy to do the bare minimum in most of her classes. Even with all of her accomodations, the teacher has to remind her to use her Fusion (co-writer) or Netbook... she will often write by hand if it is something short because it is 'faster'. Unfortunately, faster for her is often illegible or so full of mistakes that the meaning is lost. She becomes very defensive when you try to help her or suggest that she needs to edit a bit more. I think, in her case, it is due to a bit of embarrassment and a long-standing habit of doing the bare minimum because that way you could blame your poor work on a lack of effort rather than not being able to do the work. This year, we are slowly breaking apart her bad habits.

If he can't use the left margin even with a dot, it is possible that he also has some visual neglect going on. This was the case with my very dysgraphic son. His primary OT referred him to an OT who specialized in visual rehabilitation and it helped a great deal with this particular issue (and incidentally reduced how often he walked into walls...)

ETA: and everything polarbear said...

"I think the thing that's important to remember (which we were always having to remind ds' teachers about!) is that just because a kid with dysgraphia can produce legible handwriting, it doesn't make the dysgraphia go away - the actual act of handwriting still takes all the child's working memory, so there's nothing left over to focus on the other elements of writing such as spelling, punctuation, grammar, sentence formation, writing content etc."

I am convinced this is what's going on with my DD18, there must be something more than ADD and anxiety preventing her from being able to produce timely written work.

How did you all get the disgraphia diagnosis? My DD had all of the problems above when she was younger (but possibly to a lesser degree so maybe she just went under the radar?)...I asked the educational diagnostician that just tested her if they had ruled out disgraphia and she said she didn't see anything during the testing that would lead her to think of disgraphia or dislexia (despite the odd pencil grip, lack of left-right distinction, perpetually untied shoes, and DD freezing up completely during the written portion of the IQ test to the point of having to be verbally prompted to discuss her answer and then put it on paper - even then with only part of the answer actually making on to the paper).

Nik, DS was diagnosed as part of his private neuro-psych eval. I'm honestly not sure what she used to confirm the diagnoses, but it was just common sense to me.