Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums THINKING BIG About Gifted Education Sorry Strivers, Talent Matters

I would disagree with the assertion that because she is not adequately prepared for advanced math in high school, she is unable to attend an elite college and does not have the intelligence to succeed in competitive programs. the article says nothing about the quality of the education she received prior to enrollment in the suburban high school. A poor quality foundation in early math instruction is extremely difficult to overcome later.

Similarly, the SATs remain a barrier for some highly intelligent students from impoverished backgrounds for reasons that no one has been able to parse out completely.

As the mom of a profoundly gifted African American male, and the wife of am African American who grew up in extreme poverty, I know first hand the obstacles to success that must be overcome in this country if you are not born into privilege. While differences in ability and talent and intelligence clearly exist, there is also a significant opportunity gap in this country that holds back many highly intelligent and driven people, and advantages other people who are not as intelligent or driven.

I'm utterly stunned at the notion that a student who works hard but still gets a C in high school math must not be "college material." The description of this girl's experience is a lot like mine was in high school math (except she demonstrates much more perseverance and diligence than I did). In time as life went on I mastered the math I needed to, but remain fundamentally not a "math person."

Fortunately, most of life isn't a test of well roundness, even ability in all areas. Rather, we need people with strengths in different areas (writing, public speaking, organization, foreign languages, the arts, etc.) Yes, in this current economy students with strengths in math and science may find an easier road. But, it isn't like the bad economy suddenly eliminated the need for all careers that aren't about math. For students who are raised with great affluence and indulgence it may be hard to contemplate life on school counselor's salary, but that doesn't mean we need them any less. And, I will say if I was a high school student struggling in math I'd prefer to have a grown up version of this girl as my counselor rather than someone who says college is off the table for me because I got a C.

OT and PT both require a Master's degree for licensure, with statistics and physics as undergrad prerequisites for admission to most programs. Even 2-year RN programs require college algebra and statistics. It is very difficult to go into any applied science field without having a decent grasp of mathematics. The inability to grasp college algebra despite intensive study and tutoring is what kept my stepmother from becoming an RN (and thank goodness for that, but that is another story...).

ETA: I doubt the girl in the article would even enjoy a job where she had to use her worst skill on a daily basis. There are lots of careers and lots of degrees that don't really require math and science in the day-to-day work. Just because she doesn't want to reveal what her SAT scores are doesn't mean they are awful. She might be one of the ones in the program who has verbal scores in the 600s and just has perfectionistic tendencies, or she might judge herself by her classmates who are scoring in the high 700s.

I know people who are not good in math and got BSc in nursing. One got her masters. I think different states have different requirements.

Actually, it says that she's been attending the schools in Newton since second grade. ("Since second grade, she has [been riding a bus] to Newton, a well-to-do suburb with top-quality schools.")


I agree, and would add that these problems/obstacles affect a lot of intelligent people, including those who don't fit in well because of the way they think, women, atheists, and so on.

I want to re-emphasize that I have no idea about whether or not a 4-year BA degree is her best option. What bugged me about that story was the focus on elite colleges and that no one seemed to be talking about all the other options available to her. Maybe they are and this information didn't get into the article. But leaving it out just adds more fuel to the everyone-must-go-to-college! fire.

Most importantly, I believe that our society over-emphasizes getting a BA to the point where we're yoking people to six-figure student loans for educations that don't always help them develop their talents. Many of them will still be paying off those loans when their own kids are teenagers. This is just wrong. Telling people that there are other options, and that one of these options may be the best way to develop their talents is not only a good idea, it's also treating the student (and his particular talents) with respect.

The saddest thing about all of this is that many young college students are acting against their own best interests. Remember that more than HALF of students drop out of four year colleges, many with big loans waiting to be paid off. And these statistics don't count community college dropout levels (which seem to be higher).

Added: for some stories about student loans and the costs of education, read through the comments on this blog entry.

I would say most career paths have no need for trig and she could be successful at elite colleges without math as one of her top skills. Math is not the determining factor for eligibility for a top college.

It's not only the C grade, it's that she appears to have trouble with elementary school math:

'Her first two semesters in math, Nathaly got an 89 and an 86, but then fell apart on trigonometry, exponents and logarithms. �Fractions, the pi thing, oh my God,� Nathaly said.'

If she really cannot handle fractions, for example computing
1 5/8 - 2 6/7 by finding a common denominator, she does not deserve a high school diploma. Fractions are a topic of 5th and 6th grade math. Exponents and logarithms are 8th grade math.

Her verbal skills are also mediocre:

'The things the SAT measures.

To get a good score, a student must read and write quickly. Nathaly doesn�t. Her AP Spanish homework takes her a couple of hours a night. �When I read, I go very slow,� she said. �There are a lot of new vocabulary words I stop to look up to make sure I fully understand.�

How much does it matter in real life if a person reads half as fast, but spends twice as much time studying?'

In real life, if you typically take twice as long do something as your coworkers, you will be let go.

Actually, in real life there are quite a lot of different jobs that require quite a lot of different skills. Some jobs reward working really fast, in others accuracy is more important than speed. We also should not assume 17 year olds are fully formed - some students learn very different study skills in college.

Some jobs require skills well tested by bubble sheet math, science tests, but most probably don't. There is not one right way of thinking - we need people who approach tasks differently.

We don't know what this student's scores are by the way. I've met students with 95% tile composites who thought they'd "failed" it because all of their friends scored higher. At any rate, if you seriously have never met people who have done well in life despite average or mediocre SAT scores it is time to broaden your social circle.

She sounds like a very diligent perfectionist, imo.

There are many parents on this very site dealing with gifted kids with slow processing speed etc. We do not impune the intelligence of those kids. Why should we do so with hers?

Based on the description in this article, I would expect this hard working honor roll student to continue to work hard and make good grades in college. She will go to class. She will go to office hours (!). She will probably be at home studying nights and weekends while her classmates are out partying, drinking, playing video games, whatever. And will probably get better grades than most of them.

To suggest she has any less right to be there than they do by virtue of being a hard worker who is dedicated to learning is just plain ridiculous.

When I was in college, I did some substitute math teaching in my old high school for the head of the math dept. Some classes were to students in the grade 12 math which was the basic math for a high school diploma, the students that did not expect to go to college or were not going to use math in college.

I remember the lessons on fractions. Yes, grade 12 math on fractions. The other grade 12 math was calculus -- for those who could do math.

What I remember is struggling with how to teach these kids since it seemed difficult and then I hit on something that worked and they got it easily and were very proud of themselves. Math is something that they just needed a different way to explain it. Not that they were going to move on to calculus but sometimes they just need a path that works.

Ren