Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums THINKING BIG About Gifted Education Sorry Strivers, Talent Matters

Really? Wow. One C and she shouldn't go to college?

Well...to me, the point is that she stayed after school for weeks getting help with trigonometry, and she still got a C. What do the input and outcome say about her mathematical aptitude?

If trig is really too hard for her and math isn't her subject, she's basically shut out of engineering, economics, accounting, the sciences, and anything else using a lot of math. This leaves the humanities or the relatively easy majors like business and journalism. Either way, the job prospects aren't great and her debt burden may be very high.

I don't know if she's college material or not, but based on the very limited amount of information in the article, it bothers me that she and the adults around her are so focused on a BA as her best or only option.

Why should everyone go to college? Why do we assume that if students want to maximize their chances of being productive adults in good jobs, they should go to college? This outlook is insulting to plumbers, aircraft mechanics, and others. It also creates an arms race and cripples too many young people with too much student loan debt (which could ultimately be a disaster for our economy, which in turn is presumably why the debt can't be discharged after bankruptcy or death). I fear that we're creating a new hidden underclass by telling too many kids that college will land them in great high-paying jobs if they just work hard. I'd like to see real proof of this (and no, statistics about college graduates earning more aren't enough. How do 10-30 years of loan repayments change the equation? What about the lost years of earning? What about happiness and earnings of mediocre marketing managers versus really good plumbers? Etc.).

I also don't like the fact that questioning the go-to-college assumption is borderline taboo. Saying "maybe someone shouldn't go to college" isn't a way of insulting that person. It's just a way of saying "maybe there are options that would suit you better and won't land you in debt that you can't repay."

Of course, admitting that college isn't for everyone is also an admission that cognitive ability matters, and maybe that's what really strikes a nerve. I don't know.

I really, really agree with you Val. The insistence that every one must have a degree (and now, multiple degrees because everyone's getting degrees) infuriates me.

The problem is that employers now (unnecessarily) require a degree in many instances - even for basic service roles. I used to work for an organisation that had a large call centre. When we hired for customer service roles we were told we had to preference people who had a degree. These were for roles that were basically being polite to people and reciting information from a screen. There were very limited opportunities for advancement so it wasn't even that their skill would be utilised elsewhere in the organisation(in part because there was so little skill involved very few people developed the necessary skill sets to advance to other areas). This was standard practice in the industry. So people (in Australia at least) often do have to have a degree, just to get a look in.

The other side of that is that degrees have become very easy to get. I am currently completing an undergraduate degree after hating university when I first started and finding I liked earning money more (until I realised that I was bored senseless in the industry I found myself in and would need qualifications for what I want to do). 15 years ago when I started my first degree, you did your essays & you got your marks and sucked it up if they weren't what you wanted. You got a look at a practice exam and then had to make your own way on exam day seeing 'the real thing' for the first time. Now in the subjects I take for my major stream you are given 2 chances to submit an essay. You submit it, indicating the score you would like and if you don't get that score you can TRY AGAIN! We were given the full exam - word for word - for my final year subjects two weeks before the exam took place. This is one of Australia's top universities and it has a reputation for being a 'hard' subject (well... hard for Humanities . I couldn't believe it. How does something that is so easy to pass (so easy to excel at regardless of ability if you have the right,um... resources) have any value?

But what are people to do? When basic entry level service roles require a degree, people are going to want to get the best degree they can get. Fortunately here while we do have student loans they're not quite as problematic as you have in the States. Loans are provided by the government and a basic degree here might cost 15-20K. You have to earn over $44K a year before it's paid back via the deduction of 4% of your taxable income. PhDs are paid for by the Govt. But I guess then there is the potential for issues with the Government footing the bill for undergraduates degrees that will never be paid back because many of the people who get them are having to take poorly paid jobs.

I do believe in education for education's sake, but when grade one kids at my daughter's school are having several hours of tutoring a week in preparation for our selective high schools, which are in turn having to set up their own tutoring programs because kids are getting so much tutoring (to get into good universities) that they don't have time for their school work, something has gone wrong.

Well, I agree with points made by both of you, Val and Giftodd, although I do feel that words were being put in my mouth. I NEVER said everyone should go to college, I simply said that this girl who was primarily on the honor roll in college track courses throughout high school but earned a C in ONE class should not automatically be told she is "not college material". As you rightly point out, Val, we have no idea whether she is or not. I do think, however, that if she came from one of the white, upper middle class families that make up the majority of that school, getting one C would not elicit the same response.

Also, I clearly argued in the previous discussion that I believe talent DOES matter, and anyone who says it doesn't is being disengenuous. However, unless you are suggesting that she did not earn the grades she made, I don't think the fact that she works for what she learns rather than sailing through high school effortlessly means that she lacks the cognitive ability to be successful in college. As the previous discussion pointed out, ability is important, but so are other factors like motivation and persistence.

While I agree with the concerns about overindebtedness and the lack of support these days for well paying vocational occupations, I disagree with your statements, Val, that devalue a liberal arts education. Yes, they may pay less than majors that require comprehension of trigonometry, but they are still often a better alternative to working multiple low wage jobs with no benefits, which is increasingly the only thing a high school diploma is preparing anyone to do. Heck, my DH barely took any math in college and has experienced quite a bit of professional success and income. And he was also told in high school that he was not college material. And then there's my dad, also told he wasn't college material, who did become an airplane mechanic but went back to school as an adult to obtain a BA and is now a retired school teacher who had a positive impact on the lives of a lot of children and inspired my own appreciation of the value of education and a lifelong love of learning.

I think there are very real concerns with how both employment and education has been developing in the last few decades. We are seeing an increasing polarization between high paying and low paying jobs and because education is not funded fairly in our country there is an increasing class gap combined with a dwindling of employment options that can support a family without a college degree. IMO, the inherent inequality in public education should be the prime focus, but little public policy or discourse addresses this systemic problem in any meaningful way.

Sorry LNE - I was agreeing with Val re her comment that there are problems with the idea that everyone should got to college, rather than responding to your comments. My apologies for the confusion.

I do think there is A LOT value in humanities (I think I have gone on at length about that elsewhere here so I won't bore people again!) It concerns me that there seems to be an idea that humanities disciplines are 'easy'. Take philosophy (somewhat self interested as this is my major). Edward Tenner mentions the following in an article in the Atlantic titled "Is Philosophy the Most Practical Major" : "Philosophy majors also score highest among disciplines in verbal reasoning and analytical writing on the GRE aptitude test." and "In one survey, working conditions for philosophers outranked some other prestigious fields like aerospace engineering and astronomy" (full story here http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/10/is-philosophy-the-most-practical-major/246763/)

While I have no doubt that there are many disciplines in the humanities where you can probably get by without being the smartest cookie in the jar, I would argue that most are really only fully understood by having a capacity for divergent thinking and, well, by being smart (and you're unlikely to be very successful in any of those fields career wise without those attributes).

Wow- the comment about not being college material because of one C is just flat wrong. I was a lazy MG kid. Used a semi photographic memory and a great memory retention for spoken word to just get by in school( frustrated my parents). I also was one of the top athletes in the country and was recruited by every University that had a soccer team- yes I turned down Harvard( my Mom cried). This C/B student got into a top university due to sports- coasted in colleges with less than a 3 point-(never really studied-ever!) took 3 languages to get out of serious math( took logic as my one math) and have been very professionally and financially successful. Math does not equate success. I also graduated with a degree in International Studies( a lot of different liberal arts) I now run financial numbers with ease- have no use for trig or calculus- never took it and never will. I have relatives that were more studious and mathy and guess what- no where near as successful( at least according to a typical assessment of looking at financial success as the benchmark). Part of it is when it counted I have a drive and they don't, when I choose to apply myself I tend to accomplish what I focus on. So i probably did not look like college material when i was young but 2 degrees later from 2 different top universities, I would disagree. I think the individual is the only one that can tell if a college degree will benefit them and how they plan on using it. If they are lazy and plan on being lazy in their career- it is not going to help as much as someone who is driven and hungry to accomplsh things with their life and only they can define what success looks like to them. Someone may look at my life and say I am not successful because I work too much and would prefer to be paid less and have more free time. ( there is part of me that would agree :))
I do think education is always a good thing- HOWEVER- Only an individual can assess how much debt they are willing to take on and is the cost benefit analysis is worth it. A C is not a college deal breaker- trust me I had plenty and have done just fine
Brandy

I also think that she is disqualified from sciences. I think if she pursued one of the para medical professions, like OT, PT etc, she could do very well for herself in life.

I know people who got the BA, couldn't get a job, then back and did nursing. Stil jobs in nursing.

Probably off topic, but had to put in my plug :-)

I tell everyone I can that a BSc in Nursing is a great idea for someone who knows they want a BSc but is not sure what they want to do with it: 3-4 year program, graduate with a degree that enables you to apply for many other programs/graduate degrees/advanced practice (I have friends that went on to medical school) and, at the very least, you are guaranteed to have a well-paying job at the end. Not many degrees that you can take straight from high school and be ready for your career immediately after graduation. And not many fields out there where there are so very many opportunities for employment. I took the long way around with a BSc first, then the BScN... but I happily went on to my MN and I have the amazing, rewarding (and well-paying) career that I always wanted!

Back to your regularly scheduled debate.

I miswrote. I thought she wasn't disqualified from some sciences because of the math. Wouldn't want her going into Physics, but as I mentioned, the para medical is good.

But my point was that this girl is a long way from lazy. As I mentioned, she worked very hard on math, yet still ended up with a C because (by her own admission) she just didn't get it. This is very different from being lazy and getting a C.

This girl obviously works very hard and has the potential to do well in life. I fear that may be squandered by sending her off to do a BA when she might do better in other areas like nursing, allied health, and any of dozens of other career options that don't require a BA. If this statement isn't true of her, it certainly is of thousands of other kids who end up in debt with BAs they don't use.


I agree about education being a good thing, but only if it's appropriate for the individual. For example, an education at the Art Institute of Philadelphia would be wasted on me because I have no talent for art. If spots are limited (and they are at the elite colleges this girl wants to attend), the spots should go to the students with the most aptitude.


Sorry; I wasn't trying to say that you meant that everyone should go to college. I also agree that we shouldn't devalue the liberal arts (I went to a liberal arts college). But at the same time, this girl isn't from a wealthy background, and there was no mention of what she wants to study or what she wants to do later. I'm going to stand by my assertion that the article didn't give me confidence in her mathematical aptitude, which means that her BA-type options are limited. It really bothered me that no one (including the girl) was talking about her goals beyond getting into an elite college. What's she going to study? What are her ideas for what she wants to do after graduation?

At the same time, you saying that we wouldn't be questioning things because she's not white really bothers me. Sorry, but this is such a typical and frustrating response in higher education discussions. I question the wisdom of sending any student off to get a BA without providing a lot of information about other options, and have made that position clear on other threads. Wren and Kathleensmum made great suggestions: allied health and nursing. Nurses can get a job anywhere in the world and can go on to do about a zillion other cool things. This is great!

If she had been a white kid, I would have written the same thing, and this is what drives me nuts about the education debate in this country. Questioning whether or not someone who isn't white should go to college always (always) results in references to racism or classism. My questions aren't about where her parents came from. They're about the fact that in spite of a lot of studying, she can't understand "fractions and the pi thing, oh my god" and that her SAT scores were so low. To repeat: she's obviously hard-working and capable and it just bothers me that everyone around her just seems to be focused on getting into an ELITE COLLEGE over any other option.

I'm frustrated because our country is pushing thousands upon thousands of students into BAs without providing other options or having a set of serious talks about paying off student loans. I've already started this conversation with my eleven-year-old.

If you question the conventional wisdom, you're accused of being classist, racist, or whatever. This tactic obscures the real issues in the debate.