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    Joined: Aug 2009
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    Originally Posted by 1111
    Here is an example of a conversation:

    Can you come and get dressed now please?
    I will when I am done with this?
    OK, finish writing that one line and then come please.
    No, I am going to write the whole page and THEN I will come.
    No, you need to come now. (By now done with the one line)
    No, I am not! YOU go and get dressed! I am NOT coming!

    The only way to get his to come in a situation like this is to do the counting to 3. I don't want to use that technique multiple times/day though in fear that it will stop working.

    I found timer works wonders in situations like that.

    Also, if we have something to do, I always make sure DS3 knows he can't spend all day doing X. He can do X for 10 mins, and he have to get dressed and leave.

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    Yes, timers are used a lot in our house and they do help.

    Also, when practical, we give DD more responsibility. "Dada will be leaving to go to X at 10:30. If you want to come with him, be dressed and ready at 10:25." (Only works for kids who can tell time, obviously.)

    Also, we use the RoboParent technique.

    Can you come and get dressed now please?
    I will when I am done with this?
    Come and get dressed now, please.
    No, I am going to write the whole page and THEN I will come.
    Come and get dressed now, please.
    No, I am not! YOU go and get dressed! I am NOT coming!

    Act bored. Don't engage. Don't get riled. (That's the hard part!)

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    Originally Posted by 1111
    It is in the past 2 weeks DS4's behavior has become more defiant. I want to say that he is the "perfect" kid in school (according to the teacher), very mellow and kind. So I guess he has to take it out on us at home right....;-)

    My DD is having regular meltdowns at home due to school issues, but the school says they're seeing none of it. DD shared why, "You know why I'm being so moody at home? Because I'm not allowed to be moody at school!" Yikes.

    Originally Posted by 1111
    Can you come and get dressed now please?
    I will when I am done with this?
    OK, finish writing that one line and then come please.
    No, I am going to write the whole page and THEN I will come.
    No, you need to come now. (By now done with the one line)
    No, I am not! YOU go and get dressed! I am NOT coming!

    Naturally, there are a few different ways to improve this process.

    One would be to explain why you have a sense of urgency. This could get you voluntary compliance. Our DD hates being late for anything, so that's a good motivator for her. If it's going to impact my schedule to get to work, she's treated to a chain of consequences that ends with us living in a van down by the river.

    And if you can't explain it, then maybe there's no reason to be in such a hurry, so you can reset. Another possible unexpected benefit of explanations is, sometimes he'll come up with a creative solution that meets both your needs. I remember how stunned we were at some of the negotiations DD performed at age 3.

    And finally, there's a zero-tolerance policy for outright defiance. DD lives in a world where she knows that she can present her positions and negotiate, but we're not always going to agree, so at some point she may have to just accept our final word. There are some key phrases we use to let her know she's at that point.

    And a comment about the opening question in your theoretical conversation, since some people rightly pointed out that you've presented it as an optional request. We do that all the time in the adult world, where a supervisor "asks" an employee to do something, where they both know full well compliance is not voluntary (at least not so long as the employee wishes to remain an employee), because at least this makes the relationship feel a little less oppressive. So I don't really have a problem with presenting it in this way, especially since it becomes a habit that can be hard to break at home, so it's going to happen at some time or another. But whenever there's push-back on something you really didn't intend to be optional, it's always acceptable to rephrase your request. So if I "ask" DD to do something in this manner and she tells me no, I typically say, "Let me try this again..." and rephrase the request so there's no longer any confusion about choice.

    Originally Posted by 1111
    Then of course there are times when he just flat out gets angry about something and he runs up and tries to hit. This is when I immediately take him to the time out spot, where he WILL stay put.

    This is where that zero-tolerance policy comes in, because certain forms of disrespect cannot be allowed, and hitting a parent tops the list.

    Personally, I'm not a big fan of the timeout as a form of punishment, because I don't think it really teaches anything. DD is sent on a timeout when her emotions get the best of her, when she's back in control she's welcome to come out, and she has the power to determine when that is (though we'll send her right back in if it's obvious she's not ready yet). At this point, she'll put herself on timeout fairly often, because I think she's seeing the value of taking the time to be by herself and work through her emotions. The punishment, if necessary, takes the form of loss of privileges, allowance, extra chores, etc.

    Outright disobedience of a parent, though, is one of only two areas (the other being acts that can cause injury) where she can earn herself a swat on the behind. So, as I said, we have a number of key phrases that let her know she's approaching that point of outright defiance:

    - "I am your (mother/father), and you do not speak to me that way."
    - "You don't get to tell me 'no.'"
    - "That's enough."
    - "I have made my decision."
    - "That's my last word; this conversation is over."

    We'll usually end up using more than one of the above phrases before giving her a direct warning that her next objection will be followed by a spanking. And because we implemented this early and consistently, I recently had to spank her for only the first time in the last two years (and that recent incident was influenced by some fairly significant sleep deprivation on her part).

    Originally Posted by 1111
    We do take away watching videos on YouTube at night if he doesn't act right. But it is usually an all or nothing deal. It is not taken away in increments.

    Having the one go-to punishment that works is nice, because it makes things easier... but the problem can be that if he loses that privilege early in the day, he may have no reason to act right later. This is where it's good to have a mixed bag of punishments you can reach for, suited to different infractions, and also to be willing to invent one on the spot, when the right situation presents itself. For example, if the morning where he refused to get dressed was a day where you guys had something fun planned for after school, then the easy consequence there is that activity is now cancelled.

    Originally Posted by 1111
    My plan is to do it Super nanny style for the more serious offenses. The question is what to do with the not AS serious, not listening incidents...

    With a clear zero-tolerance policy for outright disobedience, the rest can be case-by-case, because what's really important is he respects your role as his mother, and pretty much everything else flows from that.

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    Originally Posted by ABQMom
    After raising two gifted kids to adulthood (the third is still in mid school), I can tell you from experience that any time you give a child the option of coming or not,

    Fabulous post! I saved it to a file for use later.

    Great responses by everyone.

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    Dude, re your post, the thing is that some kids do not respond to punishments and do not choose to comply even when faced with a zero-tolerance environment. Believe me, ours doesn't. We've tried. (We don't spank, however.) I don't know if the OP's child is like this.

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    My DS is 8 1/2 and people probably think we're insane in public but I actually believe everything is a negotiation. I approach parenting like a lawyer and I've taught him to argue back just the same. I read this article many years go in the now defunct Wondertime Magazine:
    http://wondertime.go.com/parent-to-parent/article/why-kids-should-talk-back.html

    It really changed our fights into arguments, a much more productive way for our family to live. We started talking negotiations and fair points when he was just 5. We do give in to reasonable arguments and fair negotiations and quite often. It's not uncommon for me to hear "I will do ___ when I finish this chapter/level/show/design." If you want something, you have to ask for it and in a reasonable, levelheaded and logical way. Tantrums get you nothing. It works well in our marriage too :-)

    True things I have actually said in public and getting strange looks from others around us.

    "If you really wanted to buy Legos today, you should have brought your wallet. You have no money, so you get no legos. Next time." (and walked away)

    "Lawyers don't whine, if you want it, present your case."

    "Your argument has flaws, work it out and get back to me."

    "If you don't do A then B and C will happen to you, are those consequences you are willing to accept?"

    In general, the punishment has to fit the crime and B and C have to reasonable consequences that are consistent and expected. Threatening to take something away later has never ever worked with my son. Unrelated consequences usually result in a "So? I didn't want to do that anyway."


    My kid has been to the store in his PJs because he was willing to accept the consequence of public humiliation and being cold. We do have one immediate signal for you must comply and that is when either my husband or I says "Safety Violation!" If you're doing something dangerous that will result in immediate harm, there is no negotiation, no discussion and you will comply or else! It took time to come to this situation but it works very, very well for us. My son gotten much better at controlling his emotions, calming himself when he's angry and negotiating for what he wants.


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    Wow! Thank you ALL for the wonderful information. This is great!

    Well, today has gone better. This mornings conversation went something like this:

    - I need you to come get dressed now.
    - Well, I will but I have to write all the states down first. (At this point he had written down 7)
    - You can write until you get to 10 states but then I need you to get dressed.
    - But there are 50 states and I need to write them all, THEN I will come.
    - You can write the rest AFTER we get dressed if there is still time. As of right now you are WASTING time by not listening.

    Believe it or not but he actually listened. I kept my voice monotone and didn't get worked up. Like someone said "Act bored. Don't engage. Don't get riled."

    This PM I needed him to go to the bathroom before nap. (Yes, he actually is like clock work on going #2 right before his nap)
    He was busy writing all the classmates down. This time I had to count to 5. But that always seem to work. The child is OBSESSED with numbers and time. A timer is a great idea since he regularly walks around with one anyway at the house....:-)

    Also like someone else said. To give a warning like "At 3.32 we are going to eat a snack." I have done this before and he WILL look at the clock and come right at 3.32. This is a kid who WILL NOT come out of his room after nap OR let anybody in until it is 3.18 PM...I have forgotten about this tool of time, so thank you for the reminder.

    About timeouts as a punishment. Like someone said, I will say "You are obviously out of control at the moment and you need to calm down in a timeout". Sometimes he will go put himself there too. I agree it is better to use it that way than as punishment.

    Not sure if anything is going on at school which could make him act out at home. Possibly the fact that he is a PLEASER and might work really hard at it when in school. So once he gets home he has kind of "had it" with the pleasing...not sure.

    I like the "lawyer" approach too. Never thought of this. I think it probably would instill a lot of responsibility on their part as well. Might have to work some of this in..

    Reading all the comments I realize that a lot of his behavior is related to the response from me. I think he is extremely sensitive and picks up the vibe quickly. He is still just 4, even though (like someone said) he talks and acts way beyond his age. I think he can't control himself when feeling the tension from me.

    It does work however to say this:

    "I have asked you nicely 3 times, now I am starting to get upset. I need you to come now"

    Just seems I need to sense the situation and pick the right approach weather it is counting to 3 or the above tactic.


    Last edited by 1111; 11/17/11 12:43 PM.
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