Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Most effective ways to discipline a gifted child??

I am reading this book at the moment "How to raise a gifted child". There is a statement in there about how there is a different "manual" for raising a gifted child compared to one not gifted. Interesting point for sure. This brings me to my question:

How do you most effectively discipline a gifted child? I am assuming there is a different "manual" for this as well as everything else...

DS4 (Just turned)is getting extremely defiant. I know that is nothing rare for a four year old. But you all know the verbal capabilities of an exceptionally gifted child can make for a heated argument and verbal exchange...

I am sensitive to the fact that he is EXTREMELY intuitive, sensitive and aware. He says when upset that, he doesn't want anyone to love him and if I keep loving him he will trap me in a cage and won't let me out until I say I DON'T. I am not sure if I should be alarmed by things like this? Or is it just premature teenage drama?

Not sure what to do with the discipline and I feel there has been WAY too much yelling here lately and I am afraid he is picking up on that and copying me.

Want to add that I also have DS2 (Almost 2) in the mix which causes a lot of issues for DS4 since he can be somewhat of an instigator.

Any advise, weather personal or based on research is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Annie

A couple of things we've learned over the years...

1) The rules should be clearly defined and consistent. The consequences for breaking rules should be as well.

2) Only offer explanations that are short and age-appropriate if the child is asking why calmly.

3) No negotiations.

That's pretty much it. Obviously you have to decide what type of consequences are appropriate for your family and for your children. I never found time-outs to be particularly useful in our house, but others swear by it. Plus, now that my children are both old enough (6 & almost 8) we can do grounding from various items/privileges, which works really well for us.

I've found that the better *I* stick to the rules and not let them get away with things, the easier it all is. Also, when the rules are clearly defined, I find there's less anger and yelling. Typically the anger and yelling comes from ignoring/letting bad behavior slide until you just can't stand it anymore. If you instead nip things in the butt right when they start you can handle it with more patience.

--
One other thing we found that really helped our DS7 was offering choices. We were always okay with either option, and neither option was something he clearly wasn't going to choose (ie. You can either make your bed or be grounded). We found the consistently offering choices on even silly things (do you want the blue cup or the green cup?) helped him immensely.

I'd like to say that we never yell, but obviously, nobody is perfect. I will say that we make it a strict point to avoid yelling, though. Part of that is modeling the correct behavior, and part of that is we just don't want to live like that. It helps to remember that there's no need to yell, because no matter what happens, you're in control.

Some other things that work for us:

- We NEVER make an idle threat. If we tell DD that's she's going to lose X if she continues to do Y, and she continues to do Y, she loses X. No matter how remorseful she is later, or how much she bargains for the return of X later on, the decision is final. She was warned.

This also means being prepared to give up some things you wanted. For instance, if we were in the store buying groceries, and DD threw a tantrum, we'd park the grocery cart and take her home immediately. We needed groceries, but hey, that's how it goes.

- We ALWAYS explain our rationale. Gifted kids want to know "why" for everything, and it makes it much easier for her to behave a certain way if she's made aware of why it's important. Most often, she'll accept our logic and comply in the future voluntarily.

- We pay close attention to which privilege revocations work, and which ones don't. This can change at any time. When DD was 2-3, we had her behavior controlled by revoking her chocolate milk, but then we noticed a change, where she seemed not to care. So we switched to revoking her bedtime stories, and the results were immediate.

- The toughest thing to deal with is her negative emotions, which can spiral out of control. When she's upset, we send her to her room, with the knowledge that once she has settled down and is ready to speak coherently, she can come out. This is to teach her emotional control and self-soothing. However, sometimes the feelings become a continuous feedback loop, growing more powerful the more she thinks on them. In these cases, we go in and visit her periodically, talking her down.

But we also have to recognize that sometimes she's extremely upset about something significant, and what she needs in those moments is comforting. It can be hard to tell the difference on which approach is necessary at any given time.

Every kid is different, and you'll probably find that what works for DS4 fails for DS2 and vice-versa, so this is just some food for thought. Our DD6 is a very well-behaved kid, and we'd like to think our approach has a lot to do with it... though obviously her being a girl was a huge advantage from the start, since they're typically more eager to please.

Parenting the Gifted Child says there's a difference between authoritarian, authoritative, and permissive parenting. �Choose B. �I think it looks like The Dog Whisperer on tv.

The Nurtured Heart Approach Workbook is a strength based discipline approach. �It rewards charachter strengths without losing rewards for transgressions, but with a zero tolerance policy for bad behavior. �It's subtitle is "transforming the difficult child." GT four year old older sibling

My dad said forget being consistent with the list of rules and consequences. �If he (your kid) does something that bothers you stop him immediately. �The consistent part is that YOU do what you say, not that life is consistent. �Ie., be quiet while I am on the phone or I will not take you to the movie theater. �That means that's what I've decided so that's what's happening. �I am free to change my mind. �In the end what I decide is what's going to happen, clearly.

I'm still trying to figure it out. �This is where I'm at. ��One thing everybody seems to agree on is that if your behavior is making people around you uncomfortable then that is bad manners. �Another is that a kid hitting their mother is The Worst Thing A Little Kid Can Do and must be treated and corrected as such. �

I want to work more on the nurtured heart approach. �I think that's what this generation of parenting's about. �Developing your child's strengths. �Going farther beyond stopping problems all the way into creating happiness.


I'm with you 100% on all of your post (except my younger's a 1 yr. old). �As you can see, or else why would I have put this much thought into it?

I think this book is the best of many similar by the same writer:

Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook: An Interactive Guide to The Nurtured by Howard Glasser and Lisa Bravo

I do think that many gifted kids need a particular style of dicipline because they are 'intense' and 'sensitive.' They also are 'asynchronous' in their development, which means that if you only judge by what they say, you will miss the 'age appropriate little kid' feeling that are driving the words. I found this very confusing.

Add to that the general isolation that you can't go down to the play ground and tell what is going on at your house to the neighbor moms without them thinking you are a braggart or a liar or crazy. When one steps into the zone of trying to disipline a (highly) gifted child one steps off the map of the known world and into the 'there be dragons' so it's no wonder the neighbor-friends are making that strange face at you.

Keep posting here about what is bugging you, what you are trying and what is working and not working - writing it down were you can see it will help. Knowing you aren't alone or crazy will help. And sometimes we get the advice just right!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Sorry to hear you are having trouble.

For his age, the punishment seems a bit long, and perhaps that might be contributing to the repeated untruthfulness.

I was told by a professional that my ten-year old should be given an assignment plus loose something just for a day.

In terms of what to take away it should be something they care about, for example computer time, x-box, cartoons. In terms of an assignment it could be write a sentence x-number of times, an extra chore, or have them help you with a chore.

Another thing to think about... Taking food away from small children may lead to hoarding or hiding food especially with anxious prone children.

BTW I'm waiting for my copy of the Nurtured Heart.

What she said.

And what works for one child won't necessarily work for the sibling. DD9 is intensely sensitive and empathetic. I only have to speak to her once and she is over-the-top contrite. In fact, I have to be careful about what I bring up and decide first if it is worth her losing sleep over (she will worry about hurting someone's feelings to the point that she is unable to sleep and wracked with guilt).

Her three year old brother is a whole different story. He does not care in the slightest if he upsets anyone. The world revolves around him. There is no indication of empathy. For example, he bit a child at his care giver's house today. BIT HER! Never in his life has he ever hurt another child. But, he could not have cared less. The only way his sitter got any response from him was to take the toy that they were fighting over away... which made him cry. Even talking to him tonight, he simply does not care that he hurt the child. I find this mind-bogglingly frustrating! ARG!!

Lol, it didn't work.


He wanted to send it to his elderly grandmother because she likes to put his work on her fridge.

We present everything as a choice - she chooses the action she chooses the consequences. This takes out the "threat" and "punishment" component. i.e. "Do you want to get ready like I asked or do you want to skip the birthday party?" Since she reacts very, very strongly to any negative feedback we found those things to be counterproductive. Asking her what she is trying to accomplish and explaining is also important - she is very sensitive so the idea that she is hurting someone's feelings goes a very long way. i.e. "Why would you say something mean like that to Daddy? Do you want to hurt his feelings?"

DD has always, since she was a baby, put herself into time out if she got upset. If we send her, though, it just escalates the situation. Sometimes if she is being defiant I suggest she go to her room until she is ready to discuss things calmly. Even that is enough to send her over the edge, though, so I pick my battles very carefully...

HTH

We found that at the earlier ages (3-4), the only thing that worked with our DS7 was taking away something he loved dearly as a consequence. The difficulties arose when he didn't care anymore! Then we started taking 15 minutes off his bedtime for each infraction, counting down from 5 (if we get to one and he didn't improve his behavior, he'd go to bed 15 minutes earlier). This has proved very effective, because it takes away his free time, which is really the most important thing to him. Added bonus is that he gets more sleep, and lack of sleep sometimes is the main cause of his rotten behavior. Just saying what works for us. Won't work for everyone.

My DS8 was just recently diagnosed with ADHD combined. I wish I would have discovered the NHA and Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook years ago. But, I never really thought my kid was that difficult (although he has been called defiant by a few teachers) - just demanding, spirited and exuberant. Consequences (ie taking something away) has never worked for my DS8 - traditional timeouts were not effective either (the NHA approach time outs are more effective, but hard to implement -that is why I wish I would have started with it earlier.

Positive reinforcement is the key for my DS. Negative reinformcement just results in a power struggle that usually ends badly (I still slip up sometimes though). Right now, we allot screen time only if he has accumulated points toward minutes of time. He gets points for good behavior, helping out, doing extra chores or doing them the first time I ask, taking no for an answer, saying things like I really don't want to take a shower, mom, but I know that is what you want me to do, so I am going to do it without arguing. When he asks to watch TV, play video computer games or surf the web, he can only do so if he has screen time (only other rule is after homework). Sometimes if he has used his time, he will say, I don't have any screen time, what good behavior can I demonstrate to get some.

Thank you so much for all your replies....I have been feeling like a horrible mother the past few days for sure. I have felt defeated by my DS4 AND by myself for not being able to manage the discipline.

It is in the past 2 weeks DS4's behavior has become more defiant. I want to say that he is the "perfect" kid in school (according to the teacher), very mellow and kind. So I guess he has to take it out on us at home right....;-) Also, clarifying the yelling. When I say there has been yelling I don't mean actual screaming, but more like an angry, louder tone of voice. I hate hearing myself talking to him angrily though. And I know he does not respond to it very well so it is a negative all around.

You are right about nipping it in the bud AS SOON as he starts up something. What has really been the issue is the constant ignoring/saying no to everything I ask him to do. Here is an example of a conversation:

Can you come and get dressed now please?
I will when I am done with this?
OK, finish writing that one line and then come please.
No, I am going to write the whole page and THEN I will come.
No, you need to come now. (By now done with the one line)
No, I am not! YOU go and get dressed! I am NOT coming!

The only way to get his to come in a situation like this is to do the counting to 3. I don't want to use that technique multiple times/day though in fear that it will stop working.

Then of course there are times when he just flat out gets angry about something and he runs up and tries to hit. This is when I immediately take him to the time out spot, where he WILL stay put.

We do take away watching videos on YouTube at night if he doesn't act right. But it is usually an all or nothing deal. It is not taken away in increments.

My plan is to do it Super nanny style for the more serious offenses. The question is what to do with the not AS serious, not listening incidents...

That's cute!

My kid does a chore in addition to what she has lost or had to do, but it does work somewhat better now that she is on medication that helps impulse control. But a 4 year old is a lot different than a ten-year old...

Like someone else said, consistency is very important, but it is also the hardest.

LOL

We do the count to 3 thing with Mr W.

We also withold things he likes to do, ie favorite toys, the computer, etc. These things go in timeout. We also talk to him about how what he does hurts OUR feelings. It was a real struggle when he was 2.5 to 3.0 but now its a rare occurrence.

There is some great advice in this thread. How I wish there had been this kind of resource when my kids were young!


After raising two gifted kids to adulthood (the third is still in mid school), I can tell you from experience that any time you give a child the option of coming or not, it should be when you are prepared the accept the option of not coming. Your child is discerning that "can you come" gives him the power to decide if he wants to yet or if something else is more important, while "please come now" is an imperative command that lets him know you are in charge and are deciding what needs to happen at that moment. This tactic worked very well for all three of my kids. When they didn't have an option, I didn't give them one. But when it really didn't matter, then I tried to build in options so they felt like they did have some power over their options - "would you like to continue working on your project for the next fifteen minutes and then come take a bath or would you like to finish up now and have time to read a story together" gave them the option, and I didn't really care either way.

Beyond that, I learned that it was best to pick a handful of absolutely non-negotiable rules over which I never wavered and decided the rest weren't battles where it was worth dying on the field. With my oldest, everything was a power struggle before my pediatrician recommended I try this approach. After I stopped battling her over every minute detail, she stopped battling as much over the big things. As her doctor (who is gifted) told me, "Gifted kids know whether it takes 243 times to get mom to change her mind or whether it takes 409, so if it is important, set the boundary and don't budge. The rest of the time, don't let them get to 243. Let them negotiate right away and feel like they were able to change their options that time." It helped tremendously.

The third thing I've learned raising gifted kids, is that moderation is rarely a part of their makeup. My daughter especially needed time to unwind and have alone time. If I tried to pack too much into my day when she was little, we had drama. If I made sure she had a respite from all the stimulation, she coped much better with what I was asking of her. Does your son spend most of his waking hours interacting with his younger sibling? It might help to structure some alone time for him where he can get into his own head and recharge. It may help him feel more in control over his own environment so that he's less combative when you're making changes to his environment - such as asking him to stop what he's doing.

And the last thing I'll share is that I learned that arbitrary consequences were not nearly as effective as consequences that "fit the crime". My son went through a terrible lying phase when he was about 7. After punishing him, reasoning with him, explaining to him why lying was so hurtful, I finally had enough and told him, "If you lie to me again, just know that I will take that as a sign that you are ok with me lying to you. So if I catch you in another lie, there will be no immediate punishment. But after that, I will lie to you at some point. I will agree to something or promise something, but it will be a lie. You won't know when I'm going to lie; you just will have to wonder." When he had to consider how he would feel if he couldn't trust me, he didn't lie to me. He's now an adult and still doesn't lie to me (sometimes I really wish he would... some things a mom really doesn't need to know, you know...). -smile- But the point is that punishment shouldn't always be about taking a favorite activity or thing away; when possible, the consequence should effectively teach the lesson so that your child understands why the behavior is hurtful or not acceptable. It isn't always possible, but it's a good strategy when you can find a way to use it.

Uh--when you find out, can you PLEASE tell me?

I just bought the Transforming the Difficult Child workbook. But...I have bought so many books...

totally agree here ABQmom! With DS now 5 and in K was in pre-K, I actually had to explain to his teacher that she was giving him choices because he was correctly parsing her sentences. She would say, please would you come and join us on the rug or please would you line up. I told here that we would say come join us on the rug please, clean up your toys now please. It was like the eats shoots and leaves panda (just showed the kids version to DS, hilarious!)

I find with the incredible vocab and comprehension he has learned that words have power and when you couple that with his belief that he is an equal partner in the family, it is very important to emphasize that you are in control - but not meanly or arbitrarily. I also started to explain that we ask him to do things he might not want to because of 1) safety or 2) our values. Its amazing how many things fall into the values category - you need to get dressed now because we need to be ontime. But in doing that you have to recognize when it doesnt matter - the classic pick your battles. I have left the house carrying his clothes at which point he decided he would rather get dressed in the house!

I have also noticed that the desire to be nice and courteous can be quite passive agressive - did you want him to come now, or come in 5 minutes. If 5 minutes is acceptable - give the warning - in 5 minutes you have to come - but if its now, say now. I find that my approach works for us but where it can go wrong is when I am arbitrary and then have to stick to a stupid position because i staked it out. Consistency is so critical - and we see the difference with my DH - he can be stretched or pulled away from what he wanted because he enjoys it too and then suddenly DS is so far over the line and suddenly DH is yelling, which is very confusing for both of them.

All this is very tough because it forces you to evalaute your own behavior - how you ask for things how you are in situations where they can absolutely push your buttons like no one else!

but you absoluely are in the right place for btdt!!!

DeHe

I have been amazed at how often my 2.5 year old will correct her behavior when I ask her something like this:

"Do you want to brush your teeth now, or do you want to go to time out and still brush your teeth when you get out?"

oh I hear you describing MY kid here! lol!!!

except mine had it all at school...and I'm sorry, but to me, readinga book underr the desk isn't defiant, it's my kid remembering me saying "I'd rather hear you were reading under the desk than talking to other kids or running around the room"

My DD8...so many times I tried to tell people that NONE of the rewards/consequences/timeouts/removal of priveleges, etc ever worked. I shoud have seen it coming...time outs didn't make much difference when she was littler

I TOTALLY echo ABQmom and DeHe...it's all in HOW and WHAT you say to some of these kids. I also realized the way we speak to each other in our home has led to a situation where our DD might have felt disrespected in the classroom and in turn, did not respect her teachers...

In our house, it would go like this...

Please get dressed now, it's almost time to go. (BTW-I am the ONLY "rusher" in a family of dawdlers.I know this about them and make sure to give them all plenty of warning.)
and honestly, then they get dressed.

We ALWAYS speak to each other politely...but there is a way to make even a command sound more pleasing, you know? I would suggest you also be FIRM, do not end your sentances with questions or make it sound like there is a choice. I DO try to be sensitive to the fact that my intense children need more time than others to disengage from one task and move to another...they are marathon runners, not sprinters

I also agree with the list of non-negotiables. Several of my friends have these items as "house rules". You can involve the whole family in making these rules (making sure to slip in basics like "no hitting" or, I prefer "We only touch each other with love and kindness", emphasize the positive). In our house, we also refer to it as "Team 2giftgirls". So...TEAM 2gifts only touches people with love...TEAM 2gifts uses nice tablemanners...TEAM 2gifts looks both ways before crossing the street...I think you get the idea.

One more thing to note, because I find it so interesting...so many people seem to say their kid either is great at school then awful at home, or vice versa. A kid I know said "I use up all my good at school". I honestly think you might spend a day or two observing his school environment,since you said you feel he sometimes needs to "let it out" at home. The pressure of not having choices (or fear of making the wrong choice) may be the root of the problem?

These are such great comments -- I am so happy to find this topic on here today. Yesterday was a unpleasant day for DS4 and me, him whiny and extra negotiative (that should be a word) all day which really wears one out. Many days with him I'm pretty tense by the end.

Last night I walked into a room to see him giggling and literally trying to swing our cat by its tail (he's known not to pull tails let alone lift a cat by one since 2) and he got the first actual sit down spanking of his life. He later sincerely apologized and spontaneously promised never to do it again. I didn't realize he could come up with such mature sounding things to say -- and the night ended with seemingly good feelings. But this morning I wish I'd thought of some alternative as spanking wasn't planned as one of our parenting strategies -- yet I'm still having trouble today thinking of what else would have been appropriate right then, I can't think what else would have made an actual impact on him.

Longterm I've noticed (unfortunately) that yelling actually does work with DS, for example he finally potty trained (right around 4) the very day that lost it and yelled at him about it. We don't yell very often so maybe that's why it seems to work so well, I just hate that it works as we ought to be able to get him to understand important things without that. We had tried absolutely every known potty training method previously. Ranting at your child for 15 minutes is not listed as an approved method in the potty-training books. It was as if, after a year of us trying, he suddenly thought, "oh, so they actually are serious about this potty thing".

Yesterday evening DH and I decided to go to 5 mornings a week at preschool instead of 4, for consistency and because it seems like days spent entirely with a parent tend to end poorly. I find that disappointing, that we somehow can't manage our 4 year old for a whole day. He is perfectly behaved with babysitters, and reasonably (though not perfectly) behaved at preschool. He just lets it all hang out at home.

Beyond upping the preschool days I'm clueless. We've read a few books, I really liked How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids will Talk, and also Raising Your Spirited Child. Those paralleled our gut feelings on parenting. But seemingly not working seemlessly. I read 123 Magic but didn't think that was workable for our family. I'll order the Transforming The Difficult Child Workbook.

Anyways, no useful advice from me obviously. It is really nice to know there are others having trouble at 4 also. If anyone has any other book recommendations please share!

Polly

I found timer works wonders in situations like that.

Also, if we have something to do, I always make sure DS3 knows he can't spend all day doing X. He can do X for 10 mins, and he have to get dressed and leave.

Yes, timers are used a lot in our house and they do help.

Also, when practical, we give DD more responsibility. "Dada will be leaving to go to X at 10:30. If you want to come with him, be dressed and ready at 10:25." (Only works for kids who can tell time, obviously.)

Also, we use the RoboParent technique.

Can you come and get dressed now please?
I will when I am done with this?
Come and get dressed now, please.
No, I am going to write the whole page and THEN I will come.
Come and get dressed now, please.
No, I am not! YOU go and get dressed! I am NOT coming!

Act bored. Don't engage. Don't get riled. (That's the hard part!)

My DD is having regular meltdowns at home due to school issues, but the school says they're seeing none of it. DD shared why, "You know why I'm being so moody at home? Because I'm not allowed to be moody at school!" Yikes.


Naturally, there are a few different ways to improve this process.

One would be to explain why you have a sense of urgency. This could get you voluntary compliance. Our DD hates being late for anything, so that's a good motivator for her. If it's going to impact my schedule to get to work, she's treated to a chain of consequences that ends with us living in a van down by the river.

And if you can't explain it, then maybe there's no reason to be in such a hurry, so you can reset. Another possible unexpected benefit of explanations is, sometimes he'll come up with a creative solution that meets both your needs. I remember how stunned we were at some of the negotiations DD performed at age 3.

And finally, there's a zero-tolerance policy for outright defiance. DD lives in a world where she knows that she can present her positions and negotiate, but we're not always going to agree, so at some point she may have to just accept our final word. There are some key phrases we use to let her know she's at that point.

And a comment about the opening question in your theoretical conversation, since some people rightly pointed out that you've presented it as an optional request. We do that all the time in the adult world, where a supervisor "asks" an employee to do something, where they both know full well compliance is not voluntary (at least not so long as the employee wishes to remain an employee), because at least this makes the relationship feel a little less oppressive. So I don't really have a problem with presenting it in this way, especially since it becomes a habit that can be hard to break at home, so it's going to happen at some time or another. But whenever there's push-back on something you really didn't intend to be optional, it's always acceptable to rephrase your request. So if I "ask" DD to do something in this manner and she tells me no, I typically say, "Let me try this again..." and rephrase the request so there's no longer any confusion about choice.


This is where that zero-tolerance policy comes in, because certain forms of disrespect cannot be allowed, and hitting a parent tops the list.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the timeout as a form of punishment, because I don't think it really teaches anything. DD is sent on a timeout when her emotions get the best of her, when she's back in control she's welcome to come out, and she has the power to determine when that is (though we'll send her right back in if it's obvious she's not ready yet). At this point, she'll put herself on timeout fairly often, because I think she's seeing the value of taking the time to be by herself and work through her emotions. The punishment, if necessary, takes the form of loss of privileges, allowance, extra chores, etc.

Outright disobedience of a parent, though, is one of only two areas (the other being acts that can cause injury) where she can earn herself a swat on the behind. So, as I said, we have a number of key phrases that let her know she's approaching that point of outright defiance:

- "I am your (mother/father), and you do not speak to me that way."
- "You don't get to tell me 'no.'"
- "That's enough."
- "I have made my decision."
- "That's my last word; this conversation is over."

We'll usually end up using more than one of the above phrases before giving her a direct warning that her next objection will be followed by a spanking. And because we implemented this early and consistently, I recently had to spank her for only the first time in the last two years (and that recent incident was influenced by some fairly significant sleep deprivation on her part).


Having the one go-to punishment that works is nice, because it makes things easier... but the problem can be that if he loses that privilege early in the day, he may have no reason to act right later. This is where it's good to have a mixed bag of punishments you can reach for, suited to different infractions, and also to be willing to invent one on the spot, when the right situation presents itself. For example, if the morning where he refused to get dressed was a day where you guys had something fun planned for after school, then the easy consequence there is that activity is now cancelled.


With a clear zero-tolerance policy for outright disobedience, the rest can be case-by-case, because what's really important is he respects your role as his mother, and pretty much everything else flows from that.

Fabulous post! I saved it to a file for use later.

Great responses by everyone.

Dude, re your post, the thing is that some kids do not respond to punishments and do not choose to comply even when faced with a zero-tolerance environment. Believe me, ours doesn't. We've tried. (We don't spank, however.) I don't know if the OP's child is like this.

My DS is 8 1/2 and people probably think we're insane in public but I actually believe everything is a negotiation. I approach parenting like a lawyer and I've taught him to argue back just the same. I read this article many years go in the now defunct Wondertime Magazine:
http://wondertime.go.com/parent-to-parent/article/why-kids-should-talk-back.html

It really changed our fights into arguments, a much more productive way for our family to live. We started talking negotiations and fair points when he was just 5. We do give in to reasonable arguments and fair negotiations and quite often. It's not uncommon for me to hear "I will do ___ when I finish this chapter/level/show/design." If you want something, you have to ask for it and in a reasonable, levelheaded and logical way. Tantrums get you nothing. It works well in our marriage too :-)

True things I have actually said in public and getting strange looks from others around us.

"If you really wanted to buy Legos today, you should have brought your wallet. You have no money, so you get no legos. Next time." (and walked away)

"Lawyers don't whine, if you want it, present your case."

"Your argument has flaws, work it out and get back to me."

"If you don't do A then B and C will happen to you, are those consequences you are willing to accept?"

In general, the punishment has to fit the crime and B and C have to reasonable consequences that are consistent and expected. Threatening to take something away later has never ever worked with my son. Unrelated consequences usually result in a "So? I didn't want to do that anyway."


My kid has been to the store in his PJs because he was willing to accept the consequence of public humiliation and being cold. We do have one immediate signal for you must comply and that is when either my husband or I says "Safety Violation!" If you're doing something dangerous that will result in immediate harm, there is no negotiation, no discussion and you will comply or else! It took time to come to this situation but it works very, very well for us. My son gotten much better at controlling his emotions, calming himself when he's angry and negotiating for what he wants.

Wow! Thank you ALL for the wonderful information. This is great!

Well, today has gone better. This mornings conversation went something like this:

- I need you to come get dressed now.
- Well, I will but I have to write all the states down first. (At this point he had written down 7)
- You can write until you get to 10 states but then I need you to get dressed.
- But there are 50 states and I need to write them all, THEN I will come.
- You can write the rest AFTER we get dressed if there is still time. As of right now you are WASTING time by not listening.

Believe it or not but he actually listened. I kept my voice monotone and didn't get worked up. Like someone said "Act bored. Don't engage. Don't get riled."

This PM I needed him to go to the bathroom before nap. (Yes, he actually is like clock work on going #2 right before his nap)
He was busy writing all the classmates down. This time I had to count to 5. But that always seem to work. The child is OBSESSED with numbers and time. A timer is a great idea since he regularly walks around with one anyway at the house....:-)

Also like someone else said. To give a warning like "At 3.32 we are going to eat a snack." I have done this before and he WILL look at the clock and come right at 3.32. This is a kid who WILL NOT come out of his room after nap OR let anybody in until it is 3.18 PM...I have forgotten about this tool of time, so thank you for the reminder.

About timeouts as a punishment. Like someone said, I will say "You are obviously out of control at the moment and you need to calm down in a timeout". Sometimes he will go put himself there too. I agree it is better to use it that way than as punishment.

Not sure if anything is going on at school which could make him act out at home. Possibly the fact that he is a PLEASER and might work really hard at it when in school. So once he gets home he has kind of "had it" with the pleasing...not sure.

I like the "lawyer" approach too. Never thought of this. I think it probably would instill a lot of responsibility on their part as well. Might have to work some of this in..

Reading all the comments I realize that a lot of his behavior is related to the response from me. I think he is extremely sensitive and picks up the vibe quickly. He is still just 4, even though (like someone said) he talks and acts way beyond his age. I think he can't control himself when feeling the tension from me.

It does work however to say this:

"I have asked you nicely 3 times, now I am starting to get upset. I need you to come now"

Just seems I need to sense the situation and pick the right approach weather it is counting to 3 or the above tactic.