Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Questions about GAI

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this forum and wondered if I could get some insight on IQ testing results. I've read several posts and I'm amazed with the knowledge and experience you all have!
My quesiton has to do with the WISCIV. We were given both the FSIQ and GAI scores for my DD6 and they seem to tell different things. I understand why the GAI is used and looked through the Technical Report #4. I wonder if anyone has had any experience with the GAI in practical terms. Do schools/programs view it as a valid measure? When looking at educational programming issues, how much weight should we place on the GAI?
I appreciate any thought or insights you may have.

It may depend on the specifics of the scores and what you're trying to do with them, but we were advised by the Gifted Development Center that the FSIQ on the WISC IV, in my DD7's case, just isn't accurate, and that the GAI should be used instead, because there is a 26-point difference between her scores on the highest and lowest sections of the test. In DD7's case, it could well mean the difference between getting into gifted programming and not getting into gifted programming, depending on the cutoff. We haven't tested this out since we have not used those scores to apply to anything yet, and probably won't (they also suggested that her scores will go up based on some stuff we're doing, e.g. vision therapy, and recommended testing again two years after the first test). So, I guess in our case, pretty much a 2E situation, we're putting a lot of weight on the GAI and none on the FS score.

At our post-test conference, the testers spoke about this GAI stuff more as official fact, but in the written report it seems more like an argument rather than a fact, which indicates to me that some controversy exists.

I'm with snowgirl. I think which to pay attention to is really determined by what you're trying to accomplish with the scores.

For example, I am home schooling my DS6 (aka darling son aged 6yo), so the fact that on the WISC, his processing speed score was over 40 points below his PRI and his working memory score was about 30 point below his PRI was significant info for me. Before he took the WISC, I thought he was just a dawdler, and I tended to get frustrated with him a lot. But now I know that he's not necessarily dawdling, and frustration probably isn't a useful response on my part. His average-range PS score is acting as a bottleneck (to use the term Grinity gave me) for what he can do. The GAI tells me what he would be capable of if his lower memory and speed scores weren't getting in his way.

As a result, I have some useful info about how he works, and I can adjust the type of work I do with him so that I'm not always nagging him to hurry up. That's helpful to me!

So I think ALL the results *can* be useful, depending on what you're doing with them.

Now, if you're just asking "Will the school accept the GAI instead of the FS for entrance into a GT program?", that I don't know. You'd probably have to check with the school.

Are we getting at what you want to know here?

If not, maybe more specifics about your particular situation would be useful?

K-

Thanks, Snowgirl and Kriston. Your insights are very helpful. I am in a similar situation as snowgirl in that the FSIQ score would not qualify DD6 for some selective programs (ie. Young Scholars and a program in our area for those scoring in 99.9%) but her GAI would. The discrepancy between VCI and and working memory was 34 pts and between PRI and processing speed was 32 pts. And, like Kriston's son, I see where she could be viewed as a dawdler.
I guess the scores are helpful in terms of being aware of how memory and speed may hinder her ability to work on material quickly. It is relevant for making sure that teachers don't apply this inability to judgments about cognitive capabilities. I plan to apply to the young scholars program (her VCI missed by 1 pt) and hope that they consider the GAI as well.

Thanks, Dottie.

I think I'll send a copy of this along with my application!

FWIW,
When we applied to DYS last year with a GAI over 145 and a VCI of 144, those were not considered qualifying scores. I was told that very specifically ("we have plenty of people who are meeting our requirements"). But it turned out that DS's achievement was not qualifying either (the wrong subtests had been done). If the achievement scores are well over the line, then it is probably worth applying.

I also do not totally trust the WM subtests on the WISC. DS's were well below average on the WISC. But he hit the ceiling on the WM on the SB5! So is WM is just fine (better than fine) when he is engaged. The problem (as we saw on the WISC) is that if he is bored he does not engage his WM! He almost got an ADD diagnosis on the WISC, which probably wouldn't have been fair considering his 19 on the similar test on the SB5.

He is a dawdler, but only when he is bored.

I have been wondering whether to apply for the YS program. The application is so lengthy but I figure it's free to try so I might as well. She has a qualifying math score on the WIAT which is the only reason I am going forward with it. It sounds like a great program.

Sure! Worth a try!

If I may offer some unsolicited advice: be sure you give them really strong anectdotal evidence in your answers to the questions. Remember that you want to distinguish your child from MG kids, not from ND (normally developing) kids. Using examples and stories that just show her to be GT won't be enough.

I don't know if that helps you, but it helped me to choose what stories to use. It's a long application, but you still have to pick and choose, and asking myself "Could an MG kid do this?" was my best strategy. DH and I discarded several stories we could have used because they "didn't seem GT enough" compared to others we could share.

FWIW...

Yes, it's worth a shot!

Ds was in a similar situation as your dd; scores really close but not *quite*. His FSIQ was 4 points higher than his highest composite score, and his FSIQ was 2 points short of DYS cut-off. He wasn't accepted, but I can't say I blame them! He had two qualifying WIAT scores that I hoped would push him over the edge ... Ah well.

Still, I had hopes, and I'd have hopes for you too! Definitely try for it -- it's such a great resource. I really liked filling out the application; it made me think of all the crazy things ds did that I just took for granted at the time. It was interesting!

...And I'm hoping Mia will retest her DS using a test with higher ceilings and reapply!

Eema-

62 points is a radical difference. Did you get a 2e diagnosis along with this assessment?

Thanks for the encouragement, Kriston and Mia. I like your tip, Kriston. I really do need to look at evidence that would differentiate her from MG. I'm working on one now to demonstrate precocity. I'm thinking of her early (just turned 4) fascination with WWII and how that spun off in all kinds of directions.

She was very verbal from an early age and we assumed she'd be a great reader. It turns out that her most apparent (on a standardized test anyway) strength is math, and reading is coming a little bit slower. I'm not sure if it has to do with her being in a dual language immersion program. I'm reading Infinity and Zebra Stripes and I am finding similarities in the author's son and DD (math talented, decline in reading interest, school's hesitance to accelerate in math because of language barrier).

Eema, I believe the Gifted Development Center recommends that if there are two or more subtests with 18/19 then child should be retested with SB-LM. I can't say much more about what the results from the SBLM could tell you except that the WISC may be underestimating ability (don't know if it can be used diagnostically).

That still sounds like a very big gap for ADD to be the only cause. I would look carefully at motor skills, motor planning, visual processing, etc.

Good luck puzzling out your little enigma! I have been working on my kids for so many years and still don't really understand all their quirks. But there have been enough "aha!" moments to make the whole figuring out process worth it.

Just curious...Is 2E identified by a discrepancy in composite scores? Or from discrepancy in achievement and IQ tests? How do schools/psych determine this?
DD's WISC discrepancies had her at FSIQ 137 and GAI 153. Her WIAT total math was 149 (math reasoning 154). Her reading was average however, she has had only Spanish literacy instruction since K (she's a native English speaker learning Spanish) and the test was in English. We wonder if her resistance to read is due to a LD or to being taught to decode a language that, initially, had no meaning for her.
Her reading is improving but still behind where we thought she would be by now (she's highly verbal). She did have vision therapy for accomodative spasm last Spring and hated it so we didn't continue (recently her ophthalmologist said it's getting better).
How would scores indicate 2E?

FWIW, our school district looks at the difference b/n the WIAT and the projected-WIAT (based on the WISC-IV). I was told that most school districts use a 15 point spread, ours uses a 21 point spread. Our report did not compute a GAI, nor did they ask for one.

My understanding is that scores might indicate 2E if the discrepancy between scores on different sections of the test are large enough - but sometimes I wonder how that can be, since there are lots of gifted people with average scores for working memory and processing speed and obviously much higher scores for the other two sections, from which the GAI is derived, and surely not all of them are 2E. Am I wrong in the following respect - for an official LD, must the lower scores be exceptionally low compared to average, or is it just compared to the higher scores??

I think that a discrepancy between IQ score and achievement is an alternative way to identify a person as 2E.

I guess I'm just as confused. Since my kids have learning "issues", I think of them as 2E, whether or not they meet some specific definition.

Hi Amamama,
My dd8 is also in a Spanish immersion program. She took the SB after her kindergarten year (her first year of immersion). She is extremely verbal yet her verbal score was her lowest score. I wondered wether the low verbal score was due to the fact that the majority of her language growth for that year was in another language. She currently reads about 5 levels higher than her current grade.

If I remember correctly, all the English speakers in my dd's class were reading at a higher English level than Spanish level by 2nd grade. If this is not the case for your dd, you might investigate her vision issues further. There is another thread on this board that has more information about vision issues.

As Dottie said, a split CAN indicate an LD or 2e issue, but it doesn't ALWAYS mean there is a problem. In general, the greater the split, the more likely it is that there is an issue. Here's one article that mentions performance vs. verbal discrepancy:
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/about_sb5_wisc-iv.htm

hth!

Thanks, everyone. I checked on the score differences and there were between 18-32 points on subtests that involved reading and decoding (WIAT and projected WIAT). As you said, Dottie, we have to apply a common sense approach. I don't know if this would have been red-tagged if DD had been learning in English all along.

Thanks for the link, Lorel. It's interesting to see the different areas these tests assess. Maybe we should look at further testing using SBV or SBLM.

I'm struggling with DD's situation because I'm not sure what the scores say. The FSIQ and GAI don't give me a straight answer. Then I have the immersion program to factor in which I feel may depress her scores. I am advocating for more advanced math which the principal has agreed is necessary but we hit roadblocks (DD may miss Spanish vocab if goes too far ahead, doesn't have strong independent reading ability to work on ALEKS, etc). So we just don't know if we should ride it out, try out heterogeneous English classroom, or pursue a gifted program (and use the summer to work on English literacy).

Sorry for the rambling, we feel we're at the crossroads for some big decisions but don't really know what action to take. Sometimes I just want to put it all away and not think about it but then something happens that make me wonder about it all over again!

TexasSummer, does your program teach English literacy at the onset? I believe ours doesn't start until 2nd-3rd grade. DD6 decided in Jan that she wants to learn how to read and write English. We were told last year in K not to teach English reading skills or it may interfere with Spanish. The teacher now has said it's ok if we want to teach English at home. Until what grade does your program go?

Our program does not officially teach English literacy until 2nd grade. Before then the students have English during block (Music, Art & PE) and science (which is used as their ESL class).

Our program is a 90/10 model which sounds similar to yours.
K - 90% Spanish/10% English
1st - 90% Spanish/10% English
2nd - 80% Spanish/20% English
3rd - 70% Spanish/30% English
4th - 60% Spanish/40% English
5th - 50% Spanish/50% English

Our program officially goes through 5th but they are working on creating a program in intermediate school in which the students will have one or two classes in Spanish. My dd is in the first year of the program, so her class is always the guinea pig class. I have been extremely happy with the immersion program. Without the immersion opportunity my dd would have required radical accelleration or homeschooling. I am still working on gettting her subject accellerated in math.