Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy GT program denial--need advocacy advice

After reading several posts tonight I decided this was the place for me seek advice, and at the very least vent.

My DD will be 6 next week and is in kindergarten in our local public elementary school. DD took the WPPSI III at age 4-8 because we were considering private school, scoring 144 PIQ, 147 VIQ, and 146 FSIQ. I know these aren't DYS scores (150 required on WPPSI), but 99th percentile in all three nonetheless. Most of her subtests were in the 17-19 scaled score range, but her coding was much lower (in the 75th percentile). At the time this was great information for us to have because she was getting so frustrated that she couldn't write better, and I was a little surprised that she wasn't making more progress towards reading. The psych told me it was likely neuro development and not to worry, so we didn't.

Flash forward to now. Based on her test scores we referred her for the school's GT program. So in October they pulled her out of her classroom (she was the only one from her class) and gave her a "nonverbal ability test" with about 20 other kids. Then in Dec., for the second round, they pulled her out of her class and gave her an "achievement test" with only about 5 other kids (these were the only kindergarteners to make it to the second round at her school).

A few weeks ago we got the test results back, along with the denial into the GT program. We were shocked when we saw the results. She scored in the 45th% on the Naglieri (I'm pretty sure that's what they gave her even though they won't absolutely confirm it), and in the 36% on the achievement test in the area of "general reasoning." I freaked out. I called the school to get more info. I thought maybe she had some kind of anxiety disorder or processing issue. The counselor told me the following: all the kids scored low, no kindergartener made it and only 1 first grader did, the kids just can't feel comfortable in this setting, young kids aren't used to taking multiple choice tests, some kids give up when they don't know the answer to one question, wait a few years and maybe she'll feel comfortable enough to show her abilities and test into GT, and I shouldn't worry.

After talking with a psychologist who had seen my DD at age 3 for anxiety issues, and after talking with the psych who tested her, we all decided she was likely very anxious in the group setting. They encouraged me to protest the decision. After talking with the district's GT Coordinator (who had never heard of the WPPSI, by the way), I decided to present the scores and a packet of information to the Campus Appeals Committee. I was told I had 15 minutes to present my case. I gave them the test scores, articles about testing, and examples of some recent "work" my DD had done. In 15 minutes I tried my best to sum up my DD; that's HARD!

Today I got my letter saying that the committee was upholding the original decision. There was no explanation; the box was just checked "upheld." Perhaps the most frustrating thing is that the decision was dated the same day as the meeting; they obviously didn't even read what I had submitted. I can now appeal to the district level appeals committee, but I don't have high hopes.

I've been told by several parents and teachers that the principals in my district "don't believe in programs" for the young kids, yet my district tests for GT and claims to have a program. I've also been told that GT programs here really don't do much until middle school. DD is very happy socially in her class, and fortunately she has a great teacher who makes her feel special. Honestly her self esteem was a real worry of mine because of her perfectionism, and her teacher has handled her beautifully. DD wasn't reading when kindergarten started (we didn't work with her after the coding info) but now is reading at about 2nd grade level , so I think her progress has been great in a short amount of time. I can't say that she's bored but she's such a sponge (her teacher's word) and always wants more. She's willing to initiate learning at home (recent example: last week she taught herself the sign language alphabet in about 45 minutes using starfall.com and since then has been spelling her responses to me when she's being sassy--so cute though!). I'm not sure she completely shows her motivation or knowledge at school, though, because she wants to please her teacher so much and is so concerned about her appearance.

So here I am, feeling very frustrated and left with so many questions. Do kids in Kinder and 1st grade need differentiation beyond an advanced reading group? When she turns 6 should we test her with the WISC or give her an individual achievement test to see if she scores in the DYS range, or should we wait a year to let her develop? Or should I forget the whole thing and accept that she'll be fine in the regular classroom. I'm just not sure I can accept "fine." Is it wrong for me to want more than that even if she's happy right now? Sometimes I think I'm worrying about a problem that isn't there yet. I just feel like it's coming. And I admit that I'm just plain MAD that they denied her.

I'm sorry for the rambling, and believe it or not I could ramble EVEN MORE, but I'll stop now. Any advice or encouragement would be appreciated.

Wow Amy!!!!!! That is so frustrating. I would be pulling out my hair. It sounds like you have exhaused the appeals process, so I'm going to guess the next option for you is to hire a lawyer.
That's if you intend to keep in at the school she is at now. Those are some pretty impressive IQ scores for a little lady!
I'm guessing you have already realized she needs more intellectual stimulation than she is getting now.
You could look at private schools or homeschooling.
Our resident expert Kriston has had marvelously positive results homeschooling her so.
Back to the lawyer. Expensive, but people have done it before. I am not a lawyer, but I'm betting that if they provide gifted programs for K and up, your DD's test scores would present a very compelling reason that she SHOULD NOT be excluded from them.

Take a deep breath. Your anger is warranted but will not help you figure out what to do next.

Keep us posted.

Incog

Incog--
Thank you so much for the response! I could hardly sleep last night. I just need some perspective, I suppose, though I'm just not sure what that perspective should look like. I forgot to mention that the standard the district uses for their program is 95th%, so she clearly meets that. They just say that they won't consider outside testing because "everyone would do it." I just know that she didn't get those WPPSI scores by accident!

In my research of different Gifted programs in NYC, I found that the G&T program was just the gen ed program with a few extra projects. Only the magnet gifted schools had curriculum a year ahead, starting at Kindergarten, and would allow pull out acceleration by subject.

So maybe this particular gifted program isn't that special and you can supplement with extracurricular stuff at home or field trips until you can get a good placement.

Ren

Thanks, Gratified! That's what I needed to hear!

And actually, thank you to everyone who's responded. I truly appreciate your time. Even though I say I'm not concerned about the "label," I guess I was a little. It's just hard to lose a fight, especially one for you child when you think she's unfairly being denied.

Our program is an inclusive program but they identify by subject matter. It seems more achievement based than ability, though they claim it's not. I've actually known someone who pulled her son out in 5th grade because it was just more work, not more exciting work.

I still have to decide whether to appeal to the district apppeals committee, and I'm wondering if I'll only have 15 minutes there too. Hah! I did explain to the campus committee that the WPPSI is the wechsler test for her age. And I assumed that scores on the test could be inflated a little (based on DYS requiring a 150 instead of the 145 like on the WISC) but I guess I didn't think it would be hugely dramatic, especially in every area.

Yes, she's thriving now, and she's not so bored that she's acting out or anything like that. We'll definitely continue to supplement at home as she requests (I'm too tired and lazy with my DD3 and DS1 to push her!). I just needed to hear this from others with experience. And I'll continue to lurk on these boards and hopefully learn a lot from all of you!

Amy:
Take it one year at a time. She is presently happy with her K teacher,she is thriving. Enjoy! A GT program might not give her that.
Did you already look into the next year? Do you know first grade teachers? Can you hand pick them? Would the teachers work with her/you in a regular classroom setting?
I was always the one trying not too look at the numbers, but instead focus on how well accomodated my child was. Granted, I did not know the numbers when he was in K :-)
So my advice - take it one year at a time. Try testing again next year but try really hard to talk with 1st grade teachers and accomodate DD in that way.
It can be very, very frustrating.

I am so sorry this has happened and I can certainly relate. FWIW, DD9 was denied entrance into our GT program because of her low NNAT score (75th percentile), but she scored a 134 on the WASI (the short Wechsler, given privately) with a 140 VIQ and 119 PIQ. The formal reviews of the NNAT aren't very flattering. Since DD's experience with it, I've heard of numerous other cases in which gifted kids (identified so with individual IQ tests) did not do well on it.

We were told by the school system to wait for springtime standardized testing (Stanford and OLSAT). DD9 has been miserable this year, so we're pushing further.

Yes, I do think some kindergarten and first graders need differentiation, and I don't think you're wrong for feeling this way. If your child is happy, I wouldn't worry about it right now. However, I would watch her carefully for any signs of unhappiness with school and push the issue more if her well being is affected by this. In our DD, it manifested itself in headaches and stomach aches.

I hope this helps. You are not alone in this fight, and others of us have been there (or still are, in my case).

Part of my pushing for the program for next year is because we've been rezoned to a brand new elementary school. They're building a new one because our current one was so overcrowded. The principal was just assigned; no teachers have been hired yet. My thinking was that if she was in the program, at least she would have a teacher who had at least 30 hours in "GT training," whatever that means. I just feel like it would mean she wouldn't have a first year teacher, and hopefully someone with a little more experience would be better able to differentiate curriculum as needed. I guess that's part of why I'm nervous about next year.

Today is an early dismissal day for her, and she's been begging to go to the natural science museum. I think we'll all go and enjoy the afternoon. Goodness knows I need to step away from the computer! LOL

Don't we all ?! :-)

On the other hand, a newer teacher can be a plus because they can be very energetic, idealistic and up on all the latest teaching methods. Sometimes experienced=burned out. Really, both new and experienced teachers can be very good.

Cathy

Since 'Neato conjured me up about homeschooling, I'll just pop in to say hi. If you have any questions about how it works, let me know. I'm not one to try to persuade people to HS--heck, a year ago, I'd have laughed if you had told me I'd be called "the resident expert in HSing"! But I'm happy to try to answer questions about it if you do consider HSing. It's been good for my DS6.

(And BTW, I think Lorel deserves the title of "the resident expert in HSing" far more than I do! I'm just a newbie. A chatty, helpful newbie, sure, but a newbie nontheless... She's a very helpful pro!)

Anyway, I don't have any major suggestions beyond what has already been offered to you. Most important, I think, is Ania's advice to take it one year (or less, even!) at a time. Your DD is happy and challenged now? Great! This year is working.

Now start getting your ducks in a row for 1st grade, which is when the wheels fall off for a lot of HG+ kids (and it sounds like your daughter might well be one of those!).

In my experience, the teacher matters more than anything else. A lousy teacher can ruin the best of programs, and a teacher who "gets" your child and wants her to learn can turn a crummy situation into a joy for your child.

I'm sorry about the dumb testing. Keep your chin up!

Thanks again, everyone, for the great advice. I knew this was the right place! It's not something I can talk about with even my closest friends so I was feeling a bit alone. It's just a very touchy subject.

And pinkpanther, thanks so much for sharing about your daughter. How frustrating! I'm so sorry that she's miserable, and I hope you are able to make progress as you push for more. I certainly know I'm not alone in this, which is a fact that's even more infuriating. I just think about how many kids are left out; it makes me shudder.

We'll definitely stay on top of things, and I guess we'll proceed with the district appeal. Now if I could just figure out how to better deal with many of her overexcitabilities . . . . I guess that's another thread.

If you figure out the solution to that, please let me know! My DS3.5 is Mr. Excessive Excitability! We're not sure if he's as GT as DS6.5, but if his overexcitabilities are an indication, the kid must be a GENIUS!

<exhausted sigh>

P.S. We're all with you on the "can't talk to others" about our kids. This is *definitely* the right place for you if you feel that way!

Ha! My PG OE child about drove me over the edge this afternoon. Screaming and crying about everthing and anything. I swear she thinks of the rest of us as her personal servants.

Oh, that's my DS3, to a tee. DS6 said "please" and "thank you" almost from the moment he could say "dada." But DS3 orders us around like he owns us.

And the tears! OMG! The tears! Over everything, over nothing...

Doesn't the kid know I'm an INTJ? What does he expect from me?

I'm glad you caught my assist there, Dottie. That was totally for you!

Ha! I'm right there with you Kriston. I'm an INFJ, but I'm borderline on the I and the F. This is one of those cases where my "T" definitely kicks in.

I cannot conjure up the slightest sympathy for a 10 minute dramatic episode over DD's brother touching her doll (by accident) or detecting skim milk rather than 2% from a 10 feet range. Ugh!

LOL! Ah, don't get me started! When DS3 asks for a time machine so he can go back and have OJ for breakfast-past (because having it for lunch won't do), it's BAD!

I do hate me some rampant emotionalism!

But did she ask for a time machine? I mean, that's the real question, isn't it?

(LOL!)

Ha! Love the lamp story. I'm sorry to admit I could see myself doing something like that as a child. And the time machine refernce is adorable! How GT is that?

Speaking of butt ugly - DD got a Dora chair for her 3rd birthday last June. I hid the thing in the basement because I just cannot have a lavender Dora chair in my living room. I gave it away to Toys for Tots in December. YESTERDAY DD decides it is her favorite thing ever and she must have it NOW! I had to walk her around the basement to prove it was gone. She's talking about tracking down the kid who's sitting in it now. I know I overuse this smiley, but it's so appropriate for this kid.

kimck-LOL!!!! Did you give her the "stop that rampant emotionalism" speech?? I wish I had thought of that for my DS7 earlier today when he was melting down about something. The melt downs are less frequent (thank goodness) but they still happen.

I see your OE children are also very stubborn. My DS7 is the most stubborn thing in the world. This must go along with it all somehow. I told him he could change the world if he could just channel that stubborness into something useful. He really liked me saying that and then he informed me that Rosa Parks was very stubborn - in a good way - and he wants to be stubborn in a good way too. LOL!

Maybe I can use that from now on??? "No dear, you're being stubborn in a NOT good way now. So please stop." Yeah, I see that helping!

He, he, I used to have problems with throwing old socks away, no matter how many holes in them, DS still refused to part with them.

My DH is my trouble in the holey apparel department. I learned that I shouldn't *ask* if it's okay to get rid of the underwear with the gaping holes by the elastic waistband; I should just toss 'em!





Actually, he's the one I'm not sure is GT, since he's not yet reading, etc. More denial, huh? I admit that after the HG+ one, my GT-radar may be a bit off...

Oh, and when I told DS3 that we couldn't buy a time machine because they don't exist IRL, he fell apart all over again. He decided he was going to go out to the garage and build one. "When you grow up," I told him, "but not now."

Ah, the tears when I refused to let him loose in Daddy's workshop alone! The tragedy!

Who does that?

Ok, I'm going back to the original question.

Amy, I was in a similar situation to you where my child was denied services but it turns out he is a 2e and when I went with all my research and excitement over being able to discuss this, I was met with a brick wall and a "why do YOU need him labeled GT. What's in it for YOU?" To say I felt I'd been slapped in the face would be an understatement.

The best advice I got was from this board and it was to really examine whether the program was worth the fight or not. He's already in a accelerated magnet program and the GT program is just a 1 hour a week pull out and I have decided the GT teacher is an idiot (she's the one with the above comments) so I decided that it was not worth the fight. My child's needs are currently being met. He has a fabulous teacher who gets his problems and is encouraging and supportive and he is thriving. And that for me, is enough for right now.

So I guess my advice is the same as others here have given, really assess the situation and decide if the program is worth it and whether her needs are currently being met or not. And then you can decide whether it really is worth your fighting it or not.

Good luck!!!

OMG Dottie,
that was me at that age! I almost made the family miss a airplane because I wanted to shake hands individually with each tree in our years before we left for vacation. That's logical, isn't it?

Grins

((Head nodding)) Not reading at age 3! Hee Hee! DS11 wasn't reading until age 6. They are all different.

Grinns

Hi AmyEJ,
Welcome! I'm so excited that you found us!

Ramble some more and see if you can verbalize the 'feel it coming' thing.

Is K a full day or a half day?

I totally encourage you to take this up a level, on your own if hiring a lawyer is too expensive or confusing. What do you have to lose? Nothing!

Teachers make all the difference at this age - so that means you are one 'bad' teacher away from disaster - I'd be worried about that. Plus you live in a district where the GT coordinator hasn't heard of the WPPSI, I'd be worried about that too!

If your daughter has issues with anxiety, since age 3, and perfectionism, then you have to be extra careful ((While trying to look relaxed, of course, the whole time, BTW does anxiety run in the family?))

The key to getting rid of the perfectionism is to allow her to work at her readiness level on a daily basis. I love the idea of child-led learning, but if she isn't getting it at school, I also want you to start 'expecting and demanding' that she work at her readiness level afterschool on a daily basis. If you can't do it reliably, hire a tutor, or a high school kid to come over. Going to school to enjoy friends is fine - AS LONG AS the child is 'learning how to learn' and learning that streaching herself is 'just what people do.' Particularly if you are already seeing Perfectionism.

Grinity's definition of Perfectionism in Gifted Kids: "Oh my, this work is weirdly easy, why do they give me this baby stuff, it must be because they think I'm stupid. I'll show them I'm not stupid, and do it perfectly. But what if I really am Stupid?"

You are her mom. YOu are worried. Either you are a person who worries excessivly, or you have something real, but hard to define, to worry about, OR BOTH!

I'm not suggesting that you only allow her to learn what you want her to learn, but that you introduce the idea that even for 5 minutes, 5 days a week, you will be giving that supported push, in one of her areas of strength. It did make sense for you to back off back then, but now is now.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Oh Kriston - average 3 year olds wouldn't even get a time machine! That little guy is going to surprise you one of these days. My DS didn't read willingly until 5 and now he's stealing books off my book shelf.

And yes - MY IL's were responsible for the horrible lavender Dora chair that clashed with the sage green thing I've got going here. Ugh.

Grinity - glad I'm in good company with being over the top emotional as a child. Cute story!

I haven't visited the boards in a few days because my mom called in the middle of Tuesday night and said my dad was being put in ICU because of internal bleeding in his GI tract. It's been a roller coaster because of transferring him to different hospitals but things are really good now. He's out of ICU and should go home tomorrow. I'm so glad that I live near my parents and was able to be there with my mom. And of course we're so glad that the problem was caught and was able to heal without surgery.

I had posted here originally because I was looking for perspective. Your responses certainly helped with that, and then my dad's incident sent me on over to the other side.

We're still going to appeal to the district (April 10 is the day; I have another 15 minutes!), though we're not confident that it will do any good. But bottom line: I want to make sure that I ENJOY my kids. We certainly never know what's around the corner with life. Besides, they grow up way too fast. So we'll see what happens and be prepared to make changes as necessary; I'm going to chill out a bit on the worrying, though.

Thanks again for your help. You have given great advice, brought smiles to my face, and made me laugh, as well. Amy

I agree!

Good thoughts to your dad, Amy! I hope you're doing okay!