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    Joined: Mar 2008
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    AmyEJ Offline OP
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    After reading several posts tonight I decided this was the place for me seek advice, and at the very least vent.

    My DD will be 6 next week and is in kindergarten in our local public elementary school. DD took the WPPSI III at age 4-8 because we were considering private school, scoring 144 PIQ, 147 VIQ, and 146 FSIQ. I know these aren't DYS scores (150 required on WPPSI), but 99th percentile in all three nonetheless. Most of her subtests were in the 17-19 scaled score range, but her coding was much lower (in the 75th percentile). At the time this was great information for us to have because she was getting so frustrated that she couldn't write better, and I was a little surprised that she wasn't making more progress towards reading. The psych told me it was likely neuro development and not to worry, so we didn't.

    Flash forward to now. Based on her test scores we referred her for the school's GT program. So in October they pulled her out of her classroom (she was the only one from her class) and gave her a "nonverbal ability test" with about 20 other kids. Then in Dec., for the second round, they pulled her out of her class and gave her an "achievement test" with only about 5 other kids (these were the only kindergarteners to make it to the second round at her school).

    A few weeks ago we got the test results back, along with the denial into the GT program. We were shocked when we saw the results. She scored in the 45th% on the Naglieri (I'm pretty sure that's what they gave her even though they won't absolutely confirm it), and in the 36% on the achievement test in the area of "general reasoning." I freaked out. I called the school to get more info. I thought maybe she had some kind of anxiety disorder or processing issue. The counselor told me the following: all the kids scored low, no kindergartener made it and only 1 first grader did, the kids just can't feel comfortable in this setting, young kids aren't used to taking multiple choice tests, some kids give up when they don't know the answer to one question, wait a few years and maybe she'll feel comfortable enough to show her abilities and test into GT, and I shouldn't worry.

    After talking with a psychologist who had seen my DD at age 3 for anxiety issues, and after talking with the psych who tested her, we all decided she was likely very anxious in the group setting. They encouraged me to protest the decision. After talking with the district's GT Coordinator (who had never heard of the WPPSI, by the way), I decided to present the scores and a packet of information to the Campus Appeals Committee. I was told I had 15 minutes to present my case. I gave them the test scores, articles about testing, and examples of some recent "work" my DD had done. In 15 minutes I tried my best to sum up my DD; that's HARD!

    Today I got my letter saying that the committee was upholding the original decision. There was no explanation; the box was just checked "upheld." Perhaps the most frustrating thing is that the decision was dated the same day as the meeting; they obviously didn't even read what I had submitted. I can now appeal to the district level appeals committee, but I don't have high hopes.

    I've been told by several parents and teachers that the principals in my district "don't believe in programs" for the young kids, yet my district tests for GT and claims to have a program. I've also been told that GT programs here really don't do much until middle school. DD is very happy socially in her class, and fortunately she has a great teacher who makes her feel special. Honestly her self esteem was a real worry of mine because of her perfectionism, and her teacher has handled her beautifully. DD wasn't reading when kindergarten started (we didn't work with her after the coding info) but now is reading at about 2nd grade level , so I think her progress has been great in a short amount of time. I can't say that she's bored but she's such a sponge (her teacher's word) and always wants more. She's willing to initiate learning at home (recent example: last week she taught herself the sign language alphabet in about 45 minutes using starfall.com and since then has been spelling her responses to me when she's being sassy--so cute though!). I'm not sure she completely shows her motivation or knowledge at school, though, because she wants to please her teacher so much and is so concerned about her appearance.

    So here I am, feeling very frustrated and left with so many questions. Do kids in Kinder and 1st grade need differentiation beyond an advanced reading group? When she turns 6 should we test her with the WISC or give her an individual achievement test to see if she scores in the DYS range, or should we wait a year to let her develop? Or should I forget the whole thing and accept that she'll be fine in the regular classroom. I'm just not sure I can accept "fine." Is it wrong for me to want more than that even if she's happy right now? Sometimes I think I'm worrying about a problem that isn't there yet. I just feel like it's coming. And I admit that I'm just plain MAD that they denied her.

    I'm sorry for the rambling, and believe it or not I could ramble EVEN MORE, but I'll stop now. Any advice or encouragement would be appreciated.


    Last edited by AmyEJ; 03/10/08 11:46 PM.
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    Wow Amy!!!!!! That is so frustrating. I would be pulling out my hair. It sounds like you have exhaused the appeals process, so I'm going to guess the next option for you is to hire a lawyer.
    That's if you intend to keep in at the school she is at now. Those are some pretty impressive IQ scores for a little lady!
    I'm guessing you have already realized she needs more intellectual stimulation than she is getting now.
    You could look at private schools or homeschooling.
    Our resident expert Kriston has had marvelously positive results homeschooling her so.
    Back to the lawyer. Expensive, but people have done it before. I am not a lawyer, but I'm betting that if they provide gifted programs for K and up, your DD's test scores would present a very compelling reason that she SHOULD NOT be excluded from them.

    Take a deep breath. Your anger is warranted but will not help you figure out what to do next.

    Keep us posted.

    Incog

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    AmyEJ Offline OP
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    Incog--
    Thank you so much for the response! I could hardly sleep last night. I just need some perspective, I suppose, though I'm just not sure what that perspective should look like. I forgot to mention that the standard the district uses for their program is 95th%, so she clearly meets that. They just say that they won't consider outside testing because "everyone would do it." I just know that she didn't get those WPPSI scores by accident!

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    In my research of different Gifted programs in NYC, I found that the G&T program was just the gen ed program with a few extra projects. Only the magnet gifted schools had curriculum a year ahead, starting at Kindergarten, and would allow pull out acceleration by subject.

    So maybe this particular gifted program isn't that special and you can supplement with extracurricular stuff at home or field trips until you can get a good placement.

    Ren

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    AmyEJ Offline OP
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    Thanks, Gratified! That's what I needed to hear!

    And actually, thank you to everyone who's responded. I truly appreciate your time. Even though I say I'm not concerned about the "label," I guess I was a little. It's just hard to lose a fight, especially one for you child when you think she's unfairly being denied.

    Our program is an inclusive program but they identify by subject matter. It seems more achievement based than ability, though they claim it's not. I've actually known someone who pulled her son out in 5th grade because it was just more work, not more exciting work.

    I still have to decide whether to appeal to the district apppeals committee, and I'm wondering if I'll only have 15 minutes there too. Hah! I did explain to the campus committee that the WPPSI is the wechsler test for her age. And I assumed that scores on the test could be inflated a little (based on DYS requiring a 150 instead of the 145 like on the WISC) but I guess I didn't think it would be hugely dramatic, especially in every area.

    Yes, she's thriving now, and she's not so bored that she's acting out or anything like that. We'll definitely continue to supplement at home as she requests (I'm too tired and lazy with my DD3 and DS1 to push her!). I just needed to hear this from others with experience. And I'll continue to lurk on these boards and hopefully learn a lot from all of you!

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    Amy:
    Take it one year at a time. She is presently happy with her K teacher,she is thriving. Enjoy! A GT program might not give her that.
    Did you already look into the next year? Do you know first grade teachers? Can you hand pick them? Would the teachers work with her/you in a regular classroom setting?
    I was always the one trying not too look at the numbers, but instead focus on how well accomodated my child was. Granted, I did not know the numbers when he was in K :-)
    So my advice - take it one year at a time. Try testing again next year but try really hard to talk with 1st grade teachers and accomodate DD in that way.
    It can be very, very frustrating.

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    I am so sorry this has happened and I can certainly relate. FWIW, DD9 was denied entrance into our GT program because of her low NNAT score (75th percentile), but she scored a 134 on the WASI (the short Wechsler, given privately) with a 140 VIQ and 119 PIQ. The formal reviews of the NNAT aren't very flattering. Since DD's experience with it, I've heard of numerous other cases in which gifted kids (identified so with individual IQ tests) did not do well on it.

    We were told by the school system to wait for springtime standardized testing (Stanford and OLSAT). DD9 has been miserable this year, so we're pushing further.

    Yes, I do think some kindergarten and first graders need differentiation, and I don't think you're wrong for feeling this way. If your child is happy, I wouldn't worry about it right now. However, I would watch her carefully for any signs of unhappiness with school and push the issue more if her well being is affected by this. In our DD, it manifested itself in headaches and stomach aches.

    I hope this helps. You are not alone in this fight, and others of us have been there (or still are, in my case).

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    AmyEJ Offline OP
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    Part of my pushing for the program for next year is because we've been rezoned to a brand new elementary school. They're building a new one because our current one was so overcrowded. The principal was just assigned; no teachers have been hired yet. My thinking was that if she was in the program, at least she would have a teacher who had at least 30 hours in "GT training," whatever that means. I just feel like it would mean she wouldn't have a first year teacher, and hopefully someone with a little more experience would be better able to differentiate curriculum as needed. I guess that's part of why I'm nervous about next year.

    Today is an early dismissal day for her, and she's been begging to go to the natural science museum. I think we'll all go and enjoy the afternoon. Goodness knows I need to step away from the computer! LOL

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    Goodness knows I need to step away from the computer! LOL

    Don't we all ?! :-)

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    I just feel like it would mean she wouldn't have a first year teacher, and hopefully someone with a little more experience would be better able to differentiate curriculum as needed.

    On the other hand, a newer teacher can be a plus because they can be very energetic, idealistic and up on all the latest teaching methods. Sometimes experienced=burned out. Really, both new and experienced teachers can be very good.

    Cathy

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