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    #109421 - 08/15/11 05:37 PM Re: Success factors [Re: Wren]
    mnmom23 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/11/09
    Posts: 701
    To me, success IS happiness. And I think what high-ability gives you is lots of choices. What choices you make depend on so many factors that it is impossible to set someone up for "success" if your idea of success is not their idea of success. And, just because we raise our kids in the shadow of our own choices does not mean that our kids will have the same idea of success that we do. Or, even if they do, that their path to success is the path that we would want to lead them to. I think the best you can do to "give our kids a leg up as they pursue their passions and provide for a lifestyle they want" is to provide them with love, confidence, a good work ethic, and exposure to the options out there for them.

    I, like others seem to, have a problem with equating success with work and financial success. I could have chosen (and still can) any career, but my success is in raising my children and volunteering at their schools. My husband's success if working as a more rural physician so he can, in part, spend a lot of time with family. High falutin' careers, no. But a hugely successful life, yes.


    Edited by mnmom23 (08/15/11 05:39 PM)
    Edit Reason: To add "love"
    _________________________
    She thought she could, so she did.

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    #109422 - 08/15/11 06:30 PM Re: Success factors [Re: Wren]
    kcab Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/02/07
    Posts: 1603
    Loc: Sparta, apparently
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    This is more about manuevering, even in medicine. I expect it in investment banking but this is medicine. I talk to DH about it, he had a pretty good private practice and said the schmooze factor is big, even in medicine.

    True, that, and in academe too. Schmooze is everywhere, though I think it may peak in NYC, or maybe DC.

    Fortunately, there are a lot of different definitions of success, and any one person's ideas on the topic may change over their lifetime. The downside to that, for those of a pessimistic bent, is that it just means there is no escaping failure. (eek! turn away!)

    Ren, it seems like topic this bothers you periodically, esp. possible lack of correlation between material success & IQ scores? Though, what's to say the more financially successful guy isn't also very intelligent (I'd assume that he was, I guess, given his career)? What about the role of family and personal connections, there's no denying those come into play. And self-promotion, I despise the tendency of that tactic to actually result in some forms of success (financial and recognition).
    _________________________
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    #109423 - 08/15/11 06:41 PM Re: Success factors [Re: kcab]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: kcab
    True, that, and in academe too. Schmooze is everywhere, though I think it may peak in NYC, or maybe DC.

    Fortunately, there are a lot of different definitions of success, and any one person's ideas on the topic may change over their lifetime. The downside to that, for those of a pessimistic bent, is that it just means there is no escaping failure. (eek! turn away!)

    Ren, it seems like topic this bothers you periodically, esp. possible lack of correlation between material success & IQ scores?


    Hey, if you are more intelligent than 99% of everyone else, you're going to feel bad until you arrive in the 99th percentile for wealth and material success.

    Just like school. Unless you're #1, you are going to feel like a complete failure.


    Edited by JonLaw (08/15/11 06:52 PM)
    Edit Reason: My sentence structure was stupid. And I wanted to make the post more prettier.

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    #109424 - 08/15/11 07:01 PM Re: Success factors [Re: JonLaw]
    kcab Offline
    Member

    Registered: 10/02/07
    Posts: 1603
    Loc: Sparta, apparently
    Originally Posted By: JonLaw
    Hey, if you are more intelligent than 99% of everyone else, you're going to feel bad until you arrive in the 99th percentile for wealth and material success.

    Just like school. Unless you're #1, you are going to feel like a complete failure.
    I don't agree, personally, and several other posters also appear to have a different perspective. Ren's already in the top percentile or I miss my guess. For that matter, I might be as well.

    Let's just not talk about what percentile I am at in housekeeping, lol! At least I'm above the mean, I'm pretty sure. Point being, one can measure success along many axes concurrently.


    Edited by kcab (08/15/11 07:08 PM)
    Edit Reason: attempt to soften through self-deprecation, as usual
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    #109425 - 08/15/11 07:12 PM Re: Success factors [Re: Wren]
    DAD22 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/19/11
    Posts: 312
    I think I read somewhere that once your IQ is above 120 or so, you're pretty much "smart enough" for any career path, and the correlation between IQ and success begins to break down. Other factors become very important, such as drive, risk aversion, ethics, luck, etc. And of course, a sample size of two is much too small to read anything into.

    Ditto what others have said. Intelligence gives you the ability to properly assess your options in light of your own individual values and circumstances.

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    #109426 - 08/15/11 07:18 PM Re: Success factors [Re: DAD22]
    JonLaw Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/29/11
    Posts: 2007
    Loc: The Sub-Tropics
    Originally Posted By: DAD22
    Other factors become very important, such as drive, risk aversion, ethics, luck, etc. And of course, a sample size of two is much too small to read anything into.


    It illustrates the need to pick the right medical specialtiy.

    One of the samples apparently didn't pick radiation oncology. Always a bad move.

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    #109427 - 08/15/11 07:46 PM Re: Success factors [Re: Wren]
    onthegomom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/28/09
    Posts: 1743
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    Anyway, just thinking about what ultimately will give our kids a leg up as they pursue their passions and provide for a lifestyle they want?

    This is some thread. It seems a bit high jacked.

    I think the point is she is asking "what makes a person successful?"

    Getting along with others and managing well is what helps a person be successful. It helps to be smart, hard working and have good ethics are also important.



    Edited by onthegomom (08/15/11 07:46 PM)

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    #109432 - 08/15/11 08:25 PM Re: Success factors [Re: Wren]
    islandofapples Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/20/11
    Posts: 332
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    I remember some poster writing that she expected our children to be successful because they were gifted. Recently I was thinking of 2 people I know and was wondering on the difference of their individual success.

    One, highly gifted, got himself to Princeton and is a physician in a pretty good, well paying specialty. The other is smart enough, got into medical school and is now the head (sorry to be oblique but he would be highly idenfiable) of an organ transplant thing at a name hospital center.

    The first one struggles in his specialty and building his practice and his wife has to work as a physician, despite 3 kids to maintain their fairly modest lifestyle. No big travel or anything.

    The second guy has rich people fly in from all over the world for his services and he gets paid cash from these people, gets free luxury trips for him and his family to their vacation homes. His wife never works, takes care of 4 kids and has a little sports car and they have a lovely vacation home at the ocean.

    Being gifted does gets you into schools but does it give you ultimate success? That organ transplant guy is fairly decent looking, surfs (he does a child in college already) runs marathons. The highly gifted guy is not so atractive or fit.

    Anyway, just thinking about what ultimately will give our kids a leg up as they pursue their passions and provide for a lifestyle they want?

    Ren


    Why does anyone get to the top of the totem pole like that? It seems to me that some of the characteristics of gifted adults are also characteristics that can make it hard to "play the game" and get to the top. It seems like several people in this thread dropped out of the rat race for financial and outward success in order to create the lives that they wanted, even if they were not very impressive, perhaps, to others.

    I am not sure what the highly gifted guy's issue is. Maybe they really do need the money. Maybe they need her income to cover their costs because they live beyond their means (even if it doesn't seem that way to you?)

    Maybe the highly gifted guy is tight with their money and wants to build savings. Maybe he doesn't enjoy the business end of things and isn't great at it. Maybe he is disenchanted with his career. 2 nannies certainly cost money to keep.

    My husband is currently temporarily engaged in a decent paying blue collar type job. Well, well paying for blue collar, but high enough for me to be able to stay home with our child, because we live beneath our means. If that guy wanted to make it work, trust me, he could.

    As far as success is concerned, I believe our earning power is pretty high and our income is going to continue to grow over time. We just bought our home and purposely chose a modest little neighborhood full of friendly middle class neighbors. Some have college degrees, many probably don't. We had a choice between a more "upscale" neighborhood, full of fancy cars and people who seemed to be enjoying financial success and the one we ultimately chose. We didn't like the focus on material things (and the fact that when we rented in the upscale neighborhood we noticed neighbors were not neighborly.) Our home is "just enough" for us, and we will eventually spend our extra money and time pursuing things that interest us. We have some happy dreams to that end...

    "Being gifted does gets you into schools but does it give you ultimate success?"
    No way! Obviously success means different things to different people, but being gifted and going to the right schools definitely isn't a guarantee for success.


    Anyway, just thinking about what ultimately will give our kids a leg up as they pursue their passions and provide for a lifestyle they want?

    I have thought about this, because sometimes I wonder what I could have achieved with the right start in life. If that Outliers book is at all accurate, it would seem that many successful people just have the right things happen for them at the right time.

    However, here are some things I think are necessary for success (and happiness) and that I want to give to my potentially gifted kid(s):

    *They need to be challenged and really learn and understand that when they work hard, they get better and succeed at things. This is the most important point. If you get this right, all the advantages gifted kids might enjoy can be put to good use and not wasted. You can't just coast, you can't just expect your brains to get you by, and you don't give up when most other people give up. "Persevering past the point when most people would have given up is the key to success." - Me lol.
    (I think your wealthy guy knows this. He has WORKED HARD to have that fit body and complete those marathons. Most people would never get to that point.)
    *Their strengths / interests should be nurtured, so they can grow into passions.
    *Their emotions should be validated, so that they can learn to trust themselves and their view of who they are in the world. If they have confidence in who they are, it will be a lot easier for them to choose the right path.
    *They shouldn't have to waste their entire childhood stuck in a classroom or other place that ignores their true needs. It is too many years.
    *They should choose goals and careers based on what they really love and what their ideal life would look like. Of course, their goals and priorities might change when they get married and have kids...

    If they don't know and trust themselves, if they don't know how to work hard to get over difficult humps, if they haven't nurtured their interests and such over the years - Well, when the time comes to succeed in "real life", I think they'll have catching up to do that will set them back.


    EDIT:
    If they do learn the lessons outlined, I think it will open the way for whatever they want to do. They can work hard and try to get into a top college. They can try to become professional musicians. They can start their own business or go to college aiming for law school. It doesn't matter, because they will have the skills necessary to do what they want to do.



    Edited by islandofapples (08/15/11 08:34 PM)

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    #109434 - 08/15/11 08:38 PM Re: Success factors [Re: Wren]
    Beckee Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/19/11
    Posts: 332
    Loc: Hawaii
    I recently showed my students a graph from Pew poll of Americans in general on this topic. Let's see if I can find that again...

    "While Americans value college, they value character even more. Asked what it takes for a young person to succeed in the world, 61% say a good work ethic is extremely important and 57% say the same about knowing how to get along with people. Just 42% say the same about a college education."

    Seems like 43% cited on-the-job training.

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    #109435 - 08/15/11 08:38 PM Re: Success factors [Re: Wren]
    Beckee Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/19/11
    Posts: 332
    Loc: Hawaii

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