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    #103083 05/22/11 09:14 PM
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    This is long and not well-articulated but will have to do:

    So according to the WPPSI results dd4 is not actually gifted--too lazy to find the report now but I think FSIQ was around 125 according to psych who was very nice but inexperienced with gifted kids and did say score would likely go up, that may not have been totally accurate due to immaturity (that isn't the correct explanation imo). I don't care one way or another whether dd4 is gifted or not--of all the issues we imagined dealing with when we chose intl. adoption this was certainly not one I had considered. But I know that I know that she is. I have spent enough time around young children to know that she is far from typical.

    So on Saturday she had her gymnastics "flip-fest" and her behavior was absolutely horrendous. She made faces at us (myself, dh, dd10, ds7 and my parents) stuck her tongue out, refused to cooperate, turned her back to the audience etc. etc.

    The explanations I have come up with so far are:
    1) her brother had surgery Thursday. She was picked up at school for a playdate at noon by a friend, and was with friend until 4ish p.m. (longer than usual, and first time with this friend without me), then ended up spending the night at my parents (who she sees all the time and has a good relationship with) which we decided at the last minute therefore she was not told ahead of time she would spend the night away. I think she was worried about her brother, and upset at not knowing beforehand about the sleepover. While we have been very lucky with attachment, I still have seen instances that clearly show her attachment is not 100% secure and I think her melt down Sat. reflects that. She later said she was afraid she would have to go home with g-parents after gymnastics and didn't want to.

    2. This is a kid who, even if IQ tests don't show it, is profoundly gifted physically. She taught herself to do somersaults before age 1, and just automatically knew what to do the first time on monkey bars, climbing wall, scooter, bike, etc. etc. So as we were watching this gymnastics routine, I realized that all of the skills these kids were showing off, she had pretty much perfected in the fall--so even though she appeared to enjoy the weekly classes, I can see why she could think it was boring and ridiculous to demonstrate the skills that are so unchallenging for her.

    I know she is only 4--but her behavior was SO disrespectful to the coach and the other children, and especially considering that she has such natural talent I hate for her to have negative experiences with something that could be such a great outlet for her.

    It didn't help when the coach called her by the name of the only other Asian adoptee (heck the only other Asian kid adopted or not) in our area in her age range, and she is smart enough to get why and be pissed off about it.

    So then tonight at bedtime she says she doesn't want to go to school any more. (She has been very positive about her multi-age Montessori classroom until now) Partly I am sure because she was stressed out on Thursday and wants to make sure I will pick her up and she will come home after school).

    So I ask her why and she eventually says something about wanting long hair, and then, in a very small voice, "I want a different face". And then lots of talk about her size, and how she wants to be bigger. (she is I think under the 5th% and tired of people thinking she is younger than she is). And then, that she doesn't want to get old and that she doesn't want to die.

    I feel way over my head and had thought that transracial adoptee plus emotional intensity/giftedness would be a unique combination to parent, but didn't expect to be dealing with it at 4 already. (again--I simply don't think those WPPSI scores are accurate, I am sure the kid is gifted, and that is playing a role here).

    I guess mainly I am just venting. I am pretty sure we need to get some professional guidance, but I just don't know where we will find the $...we also need to pursue further testing for dd10 (dys explore scores) and I don't know how to prioritize.

    Dd4 clearly needs to be living in a place that is much more diverse and to see faces that look like hers, but in the meantime she is in the best available fit academically so I don't know what else to do.

    Thanks for reading if you made it this far...

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    Descongirl, I don't really have any advice. But I just wanted to say that it sounds like an impossibly hard situation to be in. Your poor dd. She certainly does sound very physically gifted (particularly to a mum with a dd who nearly breaks her neck doing somersaults, despite being nearly 5.5) and that kind of self-awareness is certainly very advanced (and must be quite personally devastating, both for her and for you).
    It must also be very frustrated to have forked out cash for testing only to find it doesn't match what you're seeing, particularly when you have other places that money could have been spent.
    I�m sure someone who can say something more useful than I will come along. In the mean time, (hugs)


    "If children have interest, then education will follow" - Arthur C Clarke
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    There are a lot of issues to deal with there!!

    I think the most concerning thing would be the comment about wanting a different face. frown
    I am not sure if feelings like wanting to be VERY different are normal for 4 year olds, but perhaps for gifted 4/5's this is more common. We have a just-turned-5 dd who very often wants to dress completely like a boy (down to complaining about not having the right body parts). I usually am ok with this, but it is frustrating because,
    1. I want her to be happy with herself!!!
    2. she takes it to a real extreme, to the point of being unable to do anything until her outfit is as-envisioned.
    3. she doesn't have that many boy clothes, so getting dressed becomes a real crap-shoot. (just has a few things from her older brother).
    4. the last few days she's decided she wants to cut her hair super short, like a boy. I have worn my hair that way myself, and am not particularly feminine in my own dressing, but I just think the super short hair would create more negative attention rather than less (if that is the issue ) I am going to allow pretty short, but not extremely short.
    5., her dad is not very relaxed about the whole thing, though he is *trying*.

    I asked her teacher about it, I thought kids in the class might be making fun of her when she dresses girly (there is at least 1 boy in the class who clashes with her, despite her attempts at being friendly). The teacher did not think this was a factor (to my surprise), and said it was normal and to let her have her run with this as much as possible...
    Wanting a completely different body is a bit scary sounding to me. frown

    I have considered the possibility of counseling at some point being needed to help with all her intensities, if things don't start to mellow out!

    I continue to reassure her she is an absolutely astounding person just the way she is, and she usually smiles big at this, so hopefully it will become less of a 'must-do' and more of a fun thing she does from time to time.
    She does have days when *EVERYTHING* she is wearing has to be totally-girly, and I think the days are split about 50-50; these days are reassuring to me that this is not a deep seated hate of her own body, but a situational reaction, her attempt at trying to blend in.

    ----

    Sounds like the overnight was jarring for your dd, but with grandparents I wouldn't have thought it would be an issue (?) I would figure she was more scared for her brother than anything else.
    By itself the bad behavior at sports does sound exactly like a bored kid...
    Not to discount completely some of the more 'regular' sounding issues, but one thing to consider is the possibility that a child is 'working' the situation to avoid consequences. Do you think that is a possibility?

    Very best of luck getting a handle on this!

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    Chris,
    Thanks for your reply--yes, that was absolutely heart-wrenching, because I could tell it was totally sincere and authentic. I think the issue is that we live in possibly one of the least racially diverse places possible, and she is the only Asian child at her school.

    Dh had the brilliant idea this morning that the solution is to adopt again...ummmm, no, lol!

    I wouldn't put "working the situation" past her! And re: consequences--my husband was about to pop a vein and my dad had lots of ideas for consequences (none of which were appropriate...) Basically she didn't get to choose a treat from the concession stand, and she will be making a card for her teacher and apologizing this week. It didn't help when the teacher and other parents were like, "oh, its ok, she was cute..." ummmm...no. not cute. nothing cute about it. We also talked about how if she wants to be able to do more challenging stuff, i.e. what she saw the big girls doing, she has to cooperate and be respectful.

    And while about half of the bedtime conversation last night was sincere, if you've seen that new book "Go the F$%& to Sleep" you get the rest, lol!

    Thanks for the feedback!

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    Master of none--
    Yes, I thought of the Madeline book..."all the little girls cried boohoo, we want our appendix out too!"

    Also, her big sister had one of the leads in the school play Friday night, and got lots of positive feedback and attention for that. I think it was the perfect storm!

    Your last two paragraphs are right on...I am trying to do those things but often feel like it doesn't always come out so well. In a recent thread another poster's young child said she felt lonely because she wasn't doing the same work as other children and it was isolating.

    Even when she was three she told dd10 while looking at the American Girl catalog that Addie was ugly because she had dark skin. Dd10 said something about differences make us beautiful, etc. etc. and dd4 said "I don't want to be different, I want to be the same."

    Clearly we have to move!

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    Your daughter's IQ of 125 IS gifted. She is also only 4, right? That's very young to test her too. Maybe at 5 or 6, and with a different test, on a different day, she would score even higher.
    She's on a gymnastics team at 4? Maybe it's too much pressure for a little kid and she is acting out a bit because of that.
    I think you just want to continue to be very positive about how she looks physically, how that is just perfect, etc. She has an "Asian face," but that is just what you want, it's just right, etc.
    My older boy has worn a hearing aid for 2 years b/c he is deaf in one ear. We've always been very happy/positive about it, how lucky we are that he can hear better with it, etc. It's never been any issue with bullying or his self-image. When he was 6, he drew a self-portrait of himself with the hearing aid in place.

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    Jack's mom,
    I guess I was going by what I thought was the typical cut-off of 130? We had her tested b/c if we move soon I was contemplating asking for early entrance to K.

    Re: gymnastics--it isn't a team, it is just a class once/week and then they guilt the parents into paying $50 for a trophy/t-shirt/gym bag and they did this little 30 minute demonstration that was very low key. It is actually no pressure, and if anything too easy for her.

    Yes, we do continue to be very positive about her appearance. That is wonderful about your son. My dd7 has Down syndrome so we do a lot of talking about differences here. I love the self-portrait story!


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    While superficially it may appear that behavior was just bratty for the sake of bratty or about boredome, I would more see it as about a kid being really uncomfortable, feeling out of place, and seeking attention or reassurance. I think it is fine to pull her out, but instead of focusing on punishment I'd more spin it as having a really bad day and move on. I know that's not easy when you are feeling embarrassed though.

    You mentioned moving but I wasn't sure. Are you saying that is likely to happen? Is there any possibility there is a therapist in your area who has experience with transracial adoption?

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    Hi deacongirl
    I just wanted to offer some support, this must be tough, the acting out on top of the surgery, especially when I am sure you were hoping the event would be nice and distracting for everyone.
    My DS 5 is very sensitive to change in routine, he very much wants to know how things are going to go, especially when they are going to be different or a parent is not going to be around. DS also loves his g-parents and they babysit, but would have likely worried about having to go back as well. I have a friend with a great adoption of one ds and one dd and they had a great attachment but she says it can crop back up on you when they are worried about something else - sort of like the fear you know, if that makes sense. We found going over the week or the schedule in advance, this is going to happen and then this, yes I know that we usually do this on Mondays but tomorrow we are doing this - seems to help a bit.

    My heart breaks about wanting a different face, I always thought these issues - we have cliques in pre-K - came later - I wonder why we don't remember them!

    DeHe

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    My daughter is also an Asian-American adoptee, and also very bright. She just turned 6. We have found similar acting out behaviors (although she is pretty shy so does it more at home than in public). She came to us when she was only 4 months old, so I have never had deep concerns about attachment, but sometimes I wonder if she is acting out to test just whether we will be there even if she is naughty. Even as we are imposing consequences, we remind her as Passthepotatoes suggests that she had a bad day, there are consequences for behavior, but that we love her no matter what. Whether this is working, I really can't tell (she still has some big blowups which are unlike anything my DS ever had).

    My MIL, who raised 4 kids, including 2 transracial adoptees, and who is a very wise parent, said that most of the time it is just differences in kids, and to not over think it - meaning that a lot of times you will want to pin behavior on adoption or race, when really it is just a particular kid being a stinker. The fact my daughters blowups almost always occur at bedtime suggest that she is using them as a delay tactic and likely she is tired and more likely to act up (she knows there are many issues that may arise due to adoption, she just is pointing out that usually, they are not related).

    We are lucky that we live in a fairly diverse area, so she does she a number of Asian people (including a close family friend and her doctor) although there are not many Asian kids in her school, it is approximately 50% students of color. We have not had any negative discussions about appearance at least.

    Good luck!


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    Originally Posted by deacongirl
    And while about half of the bedtime conversation last night was sincere, if you've seen that new book "Go the F$%& to Sleep" you get the rest, lol!



    I busted out laughing when I saw that, yeah, I get it!!! My dh had mentioned that book to me, and really the title says it all laugh

    I was gonna maybe suggest something like Girl Scouts being a good fit for a kid who is looking to fit in (somewhat) -- it's one of the places dd5 seems to really fit, she even dressed totally girly the other day for a camp-day event (we drove there with her in boy clothes and after inspecting the situation, she called for her change of clothes, so that was nice to see.) But they are NOT into conformity at all, which is why it is a great place to fit! Hope you find some experience like that where she will see more girls like herself, although I know it sounds like it will be hard to find in your area...

    Last edited by chris1234; 05/23/11 09:47 AM. Reason: still getting used to writing dd'5'
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    As other's have mentioned, 125 is considered gifted. In our state, 95% and up is considered gifted.

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    I can't speak to the adoption and racial difference, but I can tell you that DS5 and a friend's DD4 both do this kind of goofy/bratty behavior and it does seem to be a plea to fit in or a distraction from frustration for both of them.

    I have had ongoing issues with DS and piano lessons, with essentially the same type of behavior. VERY frustrating and I don't really have any answers either. But, thought you might like to know it seems to be fairly age-appropriate, or at least age-appropriate for these kiddos who are making sense of their worlds and where they fit in.

    Good luck.

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    Originally Posted by passthepotatoes
    While superficially it may appear that behavior was just bratty for the sake of bratty or about boredome, I would more see it as about a kid being really uncomfortable, feeling out of place, and seeking attention or reassurance. I think it is fine to pull her out, but instead of focusing on punishment I'd more spin it as having a really bad day and move on. I know that's not easy when you are feeling embarrassed though.

    You mentioned moving but I wasn't sure. Are you saying that is likely to happen? Is there any possibility there is a therapist in your area who has experience with transracial adoption?

    PTP
    Yes, I think you are totally correct, I think that is exactly what is going on. It is hard though when the other parent (typically old-school German mind-set) sees it differently and wants to focus on the behavior rather than what is causing it. It was awkward more than embarrassing, and mostly I just felt terrible for her because she is a really wonderful little girl and for whatever reason she did feel uncomfortable.

    Re: moving--yes, we are moving somewhere else within the next 18 months ish (and prob closer to 6 months) but there are a lot of variables as to exactly when and where due to dh's job. I am hoping for the NE because I know that is where we are most likely to be able to find the best fit for education and other opportunities, but Atlanta is a possibility that would work. And then there are other possibilities that would be far from ideal.

    There is a therapist here who specializes in the gifted, and I think she would be extremely helpful and get the whole family dynamic and even though she may not have expertise in transracial adoption/attachment, I do think that she would be more helpful than an adoption therapist who doesn't get gifted kids. (I have corresponded with her and she agrees that giftedness is playing a role in dd4's situation.) And it is really a fluke that we have access to her...the resources here in terms of professionals are limited. Now to figure out how to pay for it though--the cost is enormous...

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    Originally Posted by Catalana
    My daughter is also an Asian-American adoptee, and also very bright. She just turned 6. We have found similar acting out behaviors (although she is pretty shy so does it more at home than in public). She came to us when she was only 4 months old, so I have never had deep concerns about attachment, but sometimes I wonder if she is acting out to test just whether we will be there even if she is naughty. Even as we are imposing consequences, we remind her as Passthepotatoes suggests that she had a bad day, there are consequences for behavior, but that we love her no matter what. Whether this is working, I really can't tell (she still has some big blowups which are unlike anything my DS ever had).

    My MIL, who raised 4 kids, including 2 transracial adoptees, and who is a very wise parent, said that most of the time it is just differences in kids, and to not over think it - meaning that a lot of times you will want to pin behavior on adoption or race, when really it is just a particular kid being a stinker. The fact my daughters blowups almost always occur at bedtime suggest that she is using them as a delay tactic and likely she is tired and more likely to act up (she knows there are many issues that may arise due to adoption, she just is pointing out that usually, they are not related).

    We are lucky that we live in a fairly diverse area, so she does she a number of Asian people (including a close family friend and her doctor) although there are not many Asian kids in her school, it is approximately 50% students of color. We have not had any negative discussions about appearance at least.

    Good luck!
    Thank you for sharing your experience--how wonderful you have family that can be so supportive and has btdt! We adopted dd4 when she was 10 months old, and we are fortunate that it appears she was well cared for so attachment has not been the struggle that I know some families face. However there are still moments (rare) that I know are not "normal" and somehow connected to the early losses she experienced.

    I agree that many times APs attribute things to adoption that truly are not adoption related, I think having bio kids as well helps temper some of that for me. I don't want to introduce issues where there are none, but I also want her to always feel comfortable to bring up her concerns re: race and adoption. Being in the extreme minority I think brings up some feelings sooner than otherwise possibly, and if we lived in a diverse place it might be different.

    She does have an Asian pediatrician from the Philippines. And I do like her dr. But guess who the other Asian adoptee learned that "Chinese/Japanese..." rhyme from (and then taught it to the other kids), complete with making "chinky" eyes? Yes--the Asian ped. Who also said to the little girls (Chinese) brother--"you look just like your daddy, except for your Chinky eyes"." Seriously. So having Asian dolls and an Asian dr. is not enough.

    Thank you for responding, I appreciate it!

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    Originally Posted by radwild
    I can't speak to the adoption and racial difference, but I can tell you that DS5 and a friend's DD4 both do this kind of goofy/bratty behavior and it does seem to be a plea to fit in or a distraction from frustration for both of them.

    I have had ongoing issues with DS and piano lessons, with essentially the same type of behavior. VERY frustrating and I don't really have any answers either. But, thought you might like to know it seems to be fairly age-appropriate, or at least age-appropriate for these kiddos who are making sense of their worlds and where they fit in.

    Good luck.

    Thanks for the feedback!

    I know kids can be goofy/bratty...I guess with other kids usually I can more easily understand why and how to address it with this one! (And honestly--she can be more goofy/bratty than most other kids I have seen--and as a teacher of young kids, I have seen lots of them!)

    She is a complicated little girl, that is for sure. I think in trying to figure her out I believe, based on being around a lot of "regular" gifted people my whole life and understanding so much more after lots of reading and research, that some of this might be connected to a higher LOG then I have dealt with before.

    Thank you for sharing though, it is comforting to know I am not the only one!

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