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    #101662 - 05/08/11 01:50 PM Auditing a class
    Cecilia Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/07/09
    Posts: 159
    ...So thinking of having my son take a high school science class here and there and audit it. I don't want him to take it for actual credit, since this would be a trial run to see if he could actually handle the extra load. Also,I don't want a potential "less than desirable" grade on his permanent record. I believe I can get everyone on board with this, but like everything, I have to have all my bases covered. This would be the first time in the district having an elementary student doing this. My question is, after he potentially runs through all of the high school science classes as an audit, which classes would he then take (when he's actually in high school with his age peers)as an actual credit? I know he would eventually move on to college courses, but would his high school then make him repeat the same classes he took possibly years ago, as a credit? Do these kids who audit high school/college classes as a young child, end up eventually just repeating the same courses over and over again so they can get that credit/grade on their permanent record? I hope I'm making myself clear smile Happy Mother's Day to all of you great moms!

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    #101663 - 05/08/11 02:26 PM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Cecilia]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2637
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: Cecilia
    ...So thinking of having my son take a high school science class here and there and audit it. I don't want him to take it for actual credit, since this would be a trial run to see if he could actually handle the extra load. Also,I don't want a potential "less than desirable" grade on his permanent record.


    I wonder about the auditing idea. There is little benefit in auditing a physics or chemistry class if you are not going to attempt the solve the problems in the textbook. If you are going to do the work, you may as well get credit for it. Before 9th grade, I don't think grades matter much, so I would not worry much about the permanent record.

    _________________________
    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell

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    #101682 - 05/08/11 06:56 PM Re: Auditing a class [Re: CFK]
    delbows Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/25/06
    Posts: 778
    Loc: Midwest
    Quote:
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Before 9th grade, I don't think grades matter much, so I would not worry much about the permanent record.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted By: CFK
    Classes that earn highschool credit do count for college apps, no matter when or where they are taken.

    School/district policies for high school classes taken before 9th grade vary widely as to whether, and if yes, how credit and grades are factored into the student’s high school transcript.

    This variability applies also to credits/grades earned for classes from other sources, such as summer or distance programs and early college.

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    #101683 - 05/08/11 06:59 PM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Cecilia]
    delbows Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/25/06
    Posts: 778
    Loc: Midwest
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cecilia:
    My question is, after he potentially runs through all of the high school science classes as an audit, which classes would he then take (when he's actually in high school with his age peers)as an actual credit? I know he would eventually move on to college courses, but would his high school then make him repeat the same classes he took possibly years ago, as a credit? Do these kids who audit high school/college classes as a young child, end up eventually just repeating the same courses over and over again so they can get that credit/grade on their permanent record? I hope I'm making myself clear


    Some schools teach AP courses as first year courses to qualified students while others require their advanced students to take an honors level chem., physics or bio prior to AP chem., physics or bio. Knowing your school’s usual sequence for strong science students would help with your planning.

    For example, my daughter’s high school has exactly seven science courses and my son’s high school offers twelve, while a nearby high school offers thirty!

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    #101686 - 05/08/11 07:12 PM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Cecilia]
    Grinity Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/13/05
    Posts: 7207
    Loc: Connecticut
    If you are planning for him to audit a Lab class, such as Chemistry, there is also the issue of safety. With Physics, there are Physics classes that require Calculus and Physics classes that don't.

    Also worth figuring out if there is a local Community College within driving distance as CC's often offer High School Level classes, but twice as fast with perhaps less red tape! SAT scores in hand tend to pave the way here.

    High schools vary so much, but in some he could take AP level classes for credit when he gets to high school agewise, using the base knowledge he got while auditing. Also Independent Studies might be an option.

    Best Wishes,
    Grinity
    _________________________
    Coaching available, at SchoolSuccessSolutions.com

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    #101734 - 05/09/11 09:58 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: delbows]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2637
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: delbows

    Some schools teach AP courses as first year courses to qualified students while others require their advanced students to take an honors level chem., physics or bio prior to AP chem., physics or bio. Knowing your school’s usual sequence for strong science students would help with your planning.


    I have wondered if highly gifted students need to take middle school science courses (one sequence is physical science in 6th grade, life science in 7th grade, and earth science in 8th) and introductory high school science courses or if they should dive in to A.P. courses.
    The only requirement listed for the EPGY calculus-based physics course http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/physics/P051/ is concurrent study of calulus.
    _________________________
    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell

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    #101739 - 05/09/11 10:13 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: CFK]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: CFK
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Before 9th grade, I don't think grades matter much, so I would not worry much about the permanent record.


    Classes that earn highschool credit do count for college apps, no matter when or where they are taken.

    Another problem is that some highschools might allow a younger student to enroll in a highschool class but not offer highschool credit. But then they will not allow a child to repeat a class previously taken. So if the student takes, for example, Algebra, Algebra II and Geometry prior to highscool enrollment, he or she would still be required to earn 4 math credits for graduation during highschool. If the school only offers up to Calculus, the student will run out of math courses to take to graduate. This can be a problem for children that subject accelerate far in advance of their base grade.

    (not saying not to do it, just to educate yourself about all the possible ramifications)


    QFT.


    Oh, and this: "Welcome to my Nightmare," as the song says... whistle

    In some states there are hard graduation requirements-- so if you 'audit' one of those courses, then yes, at some point, you WILL have to repeat it in order to graduate with a standard high school diploma.

    Most of the time, if a child is clearly ready for this level of instruction, there wouldn't really be any problem getting the child high school CREDIT for the course-- but you'll need to investigate that ahead of time.

    We've had to move through some very strange and uncharted waters with a few of these things.

    For example:

    most parents are never aware of how "official" grade placements work in high school. In at least some states, "high school" is.... well, it's a four-year placement that doesn't change until graduation, and once you have that label, you are assigned a "graduation cohort year" at which time, if you haven't yet completed a diploma, you're on the books as a 'failure' for the school, since you didn't graduate in four years...

    anyway.

    That's a long explanation for why we needed permission from the STATE D.o.Ed. for my DD to take high school courses for credit as an 8th grader-- without actually making her a 'ninth grader' on paper.

    They had to make an exception for her. So yes, at an age where she'd be a fifth or sixth grader, she's taking credits that colleges will see on her transcripts. This is problematic in terms of her maturity in some respects, since she doesn't yet have the complete package of executive skills that would allow her to manage her time or see into the future (cause and effect) the way her academic peers do.



    Edited by HowlerKarma (05/09/11 10:15 AM)
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #101743 - 05/09/11 10:24 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Cecilia]
    geofizz Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/06/10
    Posts: 658
    Are you meaning audit the class (sit in, not have any work graded by the teacher, not sitting for exams) or taking a class pass/fail? Here you can choose for high school math be recorded as pass/fail when taken in jr high or to take it for a grade. In the pass/fail option, you get the high school credits as long as the grade is C- or better, but the grade is not recorded on the HS transcript.

    It sounds like you're talking more about a pass/fail arrangement, not an audit. In the case of pass/fail and he can't actually handle the additional load, then there should be a withdraw date for the class at which point you can decide to pull the plug.


    Edited by geofizz (05/09/11 10:26 AM)

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    #101745 - 05/09/11 10:28 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: CFK]
    herenow Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/12/11
    Posts: 433
    Loc: on the learning curve
    Originally Posted By: CFK
    [quote=Bostonian]

    Another problem is that some highschools might allow a younger student to enroll in a highschool class but not offer highschool credit. But then they will not allow a child to repeat a class previously taken. So if the student takes, for example, Algebra, Algebra II and Geometry prior to highscool enrollment, he or she would still be required to earn 4 math credits for graduation during highschool. If the school only offers up to Calculus, the student will run out of math courses to take to graduate. This can be a problem for children that subject accelerate far in advance of their base grade.

    (not saying not to do it, just to educate yourself about all the possible ramifications)


    I think how the schools handle this topic varies very much by state and district.

    Currently the 6th graders taking Algebra 1 in our district will not get credit for the class, nor a grade. It is viewed as an "experiment" and the administration did not want these children to possibly be penalized if it turned out that they were too immature to handle the classwork.

    Any "high school" (e.g. Algebra, Geometry...) math classes taken in 7th or 8th grade will count on that child's high school transcript.

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    #101747 - 05/09/11 10:48 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Cecilia]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    There are different kinds of audits. When our student audited he was able to fully participate, completing all assignments and taking all tests and receiving back grades and feedback. The only difference between was that he did not earn credit or a grade reported on a transcript. Especially for younger students or homeschooled students who want to start college work, this is a great place to start. It is low risk, but the student still gets good experiences. Not every instructor or every school will allow it but it never hurts to ask.

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    #101750 - 05/09/11 11:03 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Bostonian]
    delbows Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/25/06
    Posts: 778
    Loc: Midwest
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    Originally Posted By: delbows

    Some schools teach AP courses as first year courses to qualified students while others require their advanced students to take an honors level chem., physics or bio prior to AP chem., physics or bio. Knowing your school’s usual sequence for strong science students would help with your planning.


    I have wondered if highly gifted students need to take middle school science courses (one sequence is physical science in 6th grade, life science in 7th grade, and earth science in 8th) and introductory high school science courses or if they should dive in to A.P. courses.
    The only requirement listed for the EPGY calculus-based physics course http://epgy.stanford.edu/courses/physics/P051/ is concurrent study of calculus.

    My vote is that science-talented middle school students take honors intro level pysics, chem and bio, then start high school with APs.

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    #101753 - 05/09/11 11:13 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: herenow]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    Originally Posted By: herenow
    Originally Posted By: CFK
    [quote=Bostonian]

    Another problem is that some highschools might allow a younger student to enroll in a highschool class but not offer highschool credit. But then they will not allow a child to repeat a class previously taken. So if the student takes, for example, Algebra, Algebra II and Geometry prior to highscool enrollment, he or she would still be required to earn 4 math credits for graduation during highschool. If the school only offers up to Calculus, the student will run out of math courses to take to graduate. This can be a problem for children that subject accelerate far in advance of their base grade.

    (not saying not to do it, just to educate yourself about all the possible ramifications)


    I think how the schools handle this topic varies very much by state and district.

    Currently the 6th graders taking Algebra 1 in our district will not get credit for the class, nor a grade. It is viewed as an "experiment" and the administration did not want these children to possibly be penalized if it turned out that they were too immature to handle the classwork.

    Any "high school" (e.g. Algebra, Geometry...) math classes taken in 7th or 8th grade will count on that child's high school transcript.


    I'd be very sure that this wouldn't (later) run afoul of the state's requirements for high school graduation, however--

    in our state, for example, there are speicific course requirements in math, in science, and in social studies which must be present in order to earn a high school diploma in the state. One of them is "geometry." So if a student takes the course as a 6th or 7th grader, without earning high school credit, it's important to find out what that would mean later on in high school in terms of the impact on graduation.

    Physical science and biology are both graduation requirements, too.

    _______________________

    ETA: I finally figured out what I had meant to add before.

    Don't rely on school officials to necessarily KNOW off-hand what the ramifications would be. Check for the information yourself on your state Dept. of Education website and/or with the local high school guidance counselor. But recognize that you are taking a gamble here, because if you do not have your child take the course for credit toward HS graduation, there's no guarantee that the CURRENT standard will be the one that applies to your child once s/he is actually a high school student. I know that often requirements are "phased in" and that students can finish their diplomas on the requirements that existed when they started high school... but the waters become a lot murkier when you're talking about a student who is several years from even entering high school. In other words, you can't necessarily predict what the powers-that-be will say... four years from now.

    Our own state education bureaucracy is kind of notorious for making graduation requirements a moving target. That's why I mention this stuff.


    Edited by HowlerKarma (05/09/11 01:39 PM)
    Edit Reason: Thanks, caffeine.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #101834 - 05/10/11 10:09 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2637
    Loc: MA
    Given the uncertainty, I would encourage my children to take high school courses for credit when they are ready for them and worry about the graduation requirements later. Maybe

    (1) high school courses taken before high school will be counted as a matter of policy
    (2) a waiver will be granted as an exception to the usual policy
    (3) the child will go to a private high school with its own graduation requirements
    (4) the child will be accepted to college without ever getting a high school diploma
    (5) the family will move to another state
    (6) the child will take further college-level math courses beyond calculus while in high school, and those will be counted toward graduation. If geometry is the stumbling block, have him take a topology class smile.
    _________________________
    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell

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    #101849 - 05/10/11 11:31 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Bostonian]
    delbows Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/25/06
    Posts: 778
    Loc: Midwest
    I would not feel obligated to have my child list high school/college courses or grades if taken before 9th grade on college applications. I’d simply advise a statement indicating “various others before high school”. And if the college wants more details, they can ask.

    Having attended a few college presentations so far, I get the impression they only have time and desire to evaluate course placement (an indication of prior education, especially in math) and grades beginning with the summer prior to 9th grade.

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    #101866 - 05/10/11 01:18 PM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Cecilia]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181

    My point here is regarding what opting OUT of credit for a graduation requirement class may mean for obtaining a regular (as opposed to :modified: ) diploma...

    One's state may have plenty to say about what constitutes a high school diploma (so with all due respect, Bostonian, it may not be up to the school to make an exception), and retaking a (then-remedial) course as a moody adolescent isn't a situation I'd wish on anyone. grin


    For example:

    Washington's current graduation CREDIT requirements

    and general graduation requirements.

    Oregon's are even MORE convoluted.

    In California, a number of courses are specifically noted as "required" for a diploma.


    The requirements in some places are inflexible, too, because they aren't "policy," they're actually written into state law. Honestly mathematics is probably the least problematic in this respect. If one gets into the language arts or social science offerings as non-credit propositions too early, that can create some real problems later, as I'm sure is clear from the three state examples cited above.

    I do understand that radically accelerated students may choose NOT to finish high school and recieve a standard diploma. Care may be necessary if it is to be a "choice."


    Seek information. Don't guess if you don't have to. That's all I'm advocating. (We're in the thick of this, which is how I am painfully aware of the compromises that must sometimes be made in order to satisfy a state bureaucratic machine that doesn't have a "slot" for PG kids-- I would MUCH rather that my then-nine-year-old hadn't been made to take a course that college admissions offices will eventually see... but that WAS the least-worst option.)
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #101964 - 05/11/11 10:37 AM Re: Auditing a class [Re: Cecilia]
    Cecilia Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/07/09
    Posts: 159
    Thank you very much to all who responded! I knew I could count on you! smile So many great points...Oh why, oh why does this all have to be so complicated?!? Ha

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