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    #101542 - 05/06/11 08:46 AM Rapid Acceleration
    Wren Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    We had some postings about rapid acceleration and early college.

    Who has feedback on what Davidson does? Those are all PG kids, right?

    How do they accomodate college level abilities and what ages and where do the kids go? Because I do not know much how they do it. Yet they would be the perfect example of what they do for the PG child.

    Ren

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    #101564 - 05/06/11 12:43 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    I visited the Davidson Academy (DA) once. The academy is located on the campus of the University of Nevada at Reno. As I understand things, DA students who are ready for college-level work can sign up for classes at the university (at no cost), including graduate-level courses. Someone from the academy walks them to class (well, definitely the younger ones. I don't know about the ones who are 17 or 18).

    They started off accepting middle and high school students. I think they may be focusing on high-school-level students now, but I'm not sure.

    The DA's website should answer some of your questions.


    Edited by Val (05/06/11 12:55 PM)

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    #101568 - 05/06/11 01:03 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    LDmom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 11/29/10
    Posts: 102
    I know a homeschooling YS family that had their child in a college course at 7 years old. And we know several others doing college-level courses online. The parent signs up and the child audits the course with the professor's approval. I'm not sure if this is relevant to what you wanted to know about Davidson but it's an option.

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    #101578 - 05/06/11 05:26 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Mark D. Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/31/69
    Posts: 271
    Hello Wren - there is some information on the Curriculum page of The Davidson Academy website that you may find helpful: http://www.davidsonacademy.unr.edu/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=233&NavID=0_36

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    #101595 - 05/07/11 03:26 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    I was referring to the Davidson Academy. Sorry I wasn't more clear.

    It would be useful research to have them tracking PG students and their paths in early college etc. I think it could be very useful for parents.

    And how they proceed through college, post grad etc.

    Ren

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    #101624 - 05/07/11 04:16 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    I guess we don't have anyone from Davidson or parents that can respond to this.

    Ren

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    #101629 - 05/07/11 06:20 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    jack'smom Offline
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    Registered: 01/02/10
    Posts: 757
    In looking at where their grads go, a few go to prestigious colleges but many go to U. of Nevada in Reno. I would guess that if you have access to a very good public (or private) school in your area, you would end up in the same place, or perhaps a better place.

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    #101643 - 05/07/11 10:28 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    chenchuan Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/03/06
    Posts: 122
    Loc: Northern California

    http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10035.aspx

    This article is a bit old (about 20 years ago) but may still be relevant to Ren's question. SMPY/SET kids generally were doing well through high school and college. 239 out of 549 (43%) kids ended up in HYPSM. It will be interesting to see the life time achievements of these kids.

    ===

    Postsecondary SET Members

    By the fall of 1992, 547 SET members had entered college or were college graduates. Although SET members are or have been represented at approximately one hundred colleges or universities, the majority have attended highly selective institutions. Ninety-three SET members attend or have attended Harvard. Next in frequency of attendance are Princeton (47 students), the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (43), Stanford (38), the University of California at Berkeley (24), Yale (18), the University of Chicago (15), the California Institute of Technology (12), Johns Hopkins (11), Carnegie Mellon (10), Cornell (9), the University of Michigan (9), Brown (8), Duke (8), Rice (8), the University of Maryland (8), the University of Pennsylvania (8), the University of Washington (8), Northwestern (7), Washington University (7), Case Western (6), Harvey Mudd (6), and the University of Wisconsin (6). The remaining institutions had 5 or fewer SET members in attendance. It appears that many SET members have been accepted to the colleges of their choice. When a less selective college is chosen, it is often a state university or a college that offers merit-based financial aid and is chosen for financial reasons.


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    #101645 - 05/08/11 03:53 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    Thanks. I think there is a lot of support for my ideas of horizontal diversification as long as the math is accelerated. Particularly the story about Chris, who was homeschooled 5th through 8th grades, reentered high school for grade 9 but took university math courses.

    Also this part:

    Subject-Matter Acceleration
    SET member Jonah took high school math in the sixth, seventh, and eighth grades. Matthew took physics courses at a local university while in ninth grade, and David studied calculus with a tutor provided by his school while in the fifth grade. Because of their exceptional mathematical reasoning abilities, these students needed to move more rapidly than their agemates through the mathematics curriculum and related subjects, but chose not to skip grades in the process. For social reasons they preferred to remain with their agemates for most of the school day; they felt they were adequately challenged in their verbal subjects, so moving ahead in grade placement to the level of their mathematics ability was neither necessary nor desirable. Moving ahead in mathematics was important, however, if they were to be adequately challenged.

    Subject-matter acceleration permits students to progress in one or more subjects without regard to age or grade placement. It may involve students' taking classes with older students (e.g., SET members in junior high often take courses in high school, and high school students take college courses on a part-time basis), working with a tutor, studying independently, or taking courses in a summer program, such as the accelerated courses offered by the talent searches. However, it is essential that schools recognize such experiences and grant appropriate credit or placement so that students do not have to repeat coursework taken for the purpose of acceleration. (See Kolitch & Brody, 1992, for a summary of SET members' experiences with regard to acceleration in mathematics.)

    Grade Skipping
    Students who need greater challenges in several subject areas than a typical school program provides and who are willing to leave their agemates may want to skip one or more grades so that they can take all of their classes with older students. For example, SET member Lisa, precocious in reading and mathematics at a young age, entered kindergarten at age four. James completed first and second grade in one year. Kurt, already accelerated in mathematics and bored with middle school, skipped the eighth grade and entered high school a year early. Nancy attended the Early Entrance Program at the University of Washington in lieu of high school. Daniel left high school after the ninth grade and enrolled full time in a local university. Pamela skipped the twelfth grade to enter college a year early.

    Students contemplating skipping one or more grades will want to consider the impact of such a decision on their social and emotional development. Academically, they will need to consider whether there will be gaps in content that should be filled, even though their mental age suggests that placement with older students is appropriate. If early entrance to college is contemplated, students should be aware that most colleges do not make special provisions to assist young students; however, some programs, such as the Early Entrance Program at the University of Washington, offer much support to such students (Brody & Stanley, 1991; Janos & Robinson, 1985). Although caution and planning are advised for students who wish to skip grades, the procedure has been a useful mechanism for selected SET members seeking escape from a curriculum that lacks challenge.



    Not saying all size fits all. But many had could make it work -- as long as the math is accelerated.

    Ren

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    #101647 - 05/08/11 08:42 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    jack'smom Offline
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    Registered: 01/02/10
    Posts: 757
    I think the question was- where do many of the graduates from DYS' school in Reno go? According to their website, many go to U. Neveada-Reno.

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    #101649 - 05/08/11 09:28 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: chenchuan]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Originally Posted By: chenchuan

    It appears that many SET members have been accepted to the colleges of their choice. When a less selective college is chosen, it is often a state university or a college that offers merit-based financial aid and is chosen for financial reasons.



    I wish there was newer research on SET members. Does anyone know if there is? One thing I'd keep in mind is that taking the SAT before 13 and participating in SET already hits a population more likely to go to highly selective, east coast colleges. There may be many equally smart kids in the midwest or south who would not be inclined twenty years ago (or perhaps even now) to take the SAT before age 13. If all kids tested on the SAT before 13, I suspect in the top scorers we'd find a higher percentage of kids who go to state universities. Some for financial reasons but many for other reasons. Now that would likely include some kids who are entering college quite early and these students are more likely to go to college locally.

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    #101650 - 05/08/11 09:31 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: jack'smom]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Originally Posted By: jack'smom
    I think the question was- where do many of the graduates from DYS' school in Reno go? According to their website, many go to U. Neveada-Reno.


    My question would be why does that matter. I would assume the population going to the DA are students who are all intellectually capable of going to highly selective colleges if they wished. Is there an unstated assumption that going to U of Nevada Reno means the school is not producing top students? People choose their colleges with a wide variety of considerations in mind. Some students may decide they'd prefer to wrap up college quickly at less cost and then move on to a more prestigious and expensive school for graduate school.

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    #101652 - 05/08/11 10:43 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    jack'smom Offline
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    Registered: 01/02/10
    Posts: 757
    Unfortunately, it does matter.
    Many/most prestigious or competitive graduate programs take people from their undergrad programs. You would think it is purely a meritocracy but it's not.
    As an example- I graduated from Harvard Medical School, having gone to Northwestern undergrad (currently ranked #12). I was the first person to go to HMS from NU in 20 years; NU hasn't been a feeder school for HMS. I would estimate that only 10% of my HMS class came from non-IVY league, non-top 20 schools. At least half came from Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. undergrad.
    It's easier to get into a prestigious undergrad from high school than into a prestigious grad program not coming from a prestigious undergrad.
    Obviously, it can be done. People do it all the time.
    And there is a separate discussion about if you need to go to an expensive, prestigious school for grad or undergrad school at all.
    My point is simply that- you may (or may not) still be able to get into a more prestigious, expensive grad school coming from a no-name undergrad. It is very hard to do.

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    #101656 - 05/08/11 11:14 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    jack'smom Offline
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    Registered: 01/02/10
    Posts: 757
    I disagree. That is why people pay so much money to get into prestigious undergrads since they believe it will lead to access into prestigious grad programs, which in turn could lead to better-paying jobs.
    It used to be recommended that you move to a different program for your PhD- if you have ever read Richard Feynman's various bios, they told him to leave MIT and go to Princeton (I think that is where he was, LOL). That isn't necessarily true today.
    As I mentioned, obviously you CAN get into prestigious grad schools coming from lesser known undergrads. It's much harder. How much harder is difficult to say.
    Law and medical schools go on lots of factors for acceptance- where you went to college is a big one; GPA, MCAT/LSAT scores, personal essay, resume/activities, etc. Many people at Harvard Law also came from the Ivies for undergrad. Not all of them, but there were not alot of people from no-name schools either.

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    #101659 - 05/08/11 01:18 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    My question wasn't so much about where they went for college but when -- and then where.

    And the article was very interesting for insignt into the fact that most -- since they cited the few that did early college entrance -- opted for regular high school but with acceleration in math and related (physics? since they didn't say) subjects.

    In high school you get to participate in physical education with peers, which is something you should do for your body and mental health, in my opinion. Even languages you can move at your own level, do a year in a foreign country. There are options.

    So I thought it was very interesting.

    And I think Jack'smom has a point. The IV's have highly competitive entrance and will cover financial costs if necessary. That is what those multi-billion dollar funds are for. And if you are so able to make into the prestigious college in the first place, wouldn't you have a good shot at their grad schools?

    Ren

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    #101666 - 05/08/11 02:50 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    IMO by the time you've educated them well enough to consider college they should be developed enough to have some of their own ideas in mind.  There goes all your careful plans, or there should go all your careful plans.  I'm obviously  over-involved while they're really young.  I think they'll be making most of their own choices when they're ready.  I don't know if I'll be ready.  Now the below highschool level acceleration is a different question, one I honestly can't answer yet even for my own kids.  I'm open to anything from going to school as a social event to advocating for a k skip straight to wherever the DAS or MAP puts him by that time.  From sending him a year early to holding him back until he turns almost 7 (late birthday and kindergartens not mandatory).  I'm open to homeschool or virtual school, I'm not sure about boarding school; I would like to hope I would be, but I'm not certain. How I can be this open to the possibilities and this aware of the options and still be uncertain of the plan, we'll see how that works out.  I think it's great that there's archives of what worked for other GPG kids and even better that we have a live chat forum here to ask real people about their experiences and get instant feedback on our ideas and our lives, but I don't think it will make a "best practices" formula for raising a PG kid, maybe for running a school or community, but not for guiding an individual kid.  I honor your life Wren of giving your daughter the best of everything you can find and making your world revolve around your baby and her childhood and her progression at her own pace.  Ain't it beautiful.
    Happy Mothers Day.
    And Happy Mothers Day everybody.


    Edited by La Texican (05/08/11 03:16 PM)
    _________________________
    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar

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    #101667 - 05/08/11 03:12 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: CFK]
    kaibab Offline
    Member

    Registered: 08/24/10
    Posts: 99
    Loc: USA
    There is a survey of early college students summarized here: early college survey

    It seems to me that subject acceleration works great for kids who do not need radical acceleration in all subjects. If a child is well-served with most subjects and needs extra challenge in math, it makes sense to just accelerate the math. If the child needs to skip several grades in every subject including writing, literacy, social studies, science, and math, then subject acceleration has serious limitations and cannot hope to meet the needs of the child.

    I suspect there are few parents who look at their 5 or 6 yo and plan for early college at 10. I think most parents who end up with children in early college or doing very radical acceleration in all subjects make that choice when their children are 10, ready for college, and miserable doing anything else.


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    #101668 - 05/08/11 03:17 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    That seems like a good suspicion.
    _________________________
    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar

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    #101672 - 05/08/11 04:14 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    I think that is a very interesting document. The one case that was mentioned on local TV in NY a number of years ago, was a girl who graduated from Stoneybrook U at 13. She commuted and her parents kept her same age friends through activities such as Karate. She was not allowed to live on campus.

    But it seems that many just do dual enrollment, which I am totally in favor.

    Ren

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    #101673 - 05/08/11 04:27 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: La Texican]
    chenchuan Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/03/06
    Posts: 122
    Loc: Northern California
    Originally Posted By: La Texican

    Happy Mothers Day.
    And Happy Mothers Day everybody.


    I would second La Texican's motion. DD17 and DD18 called my wife this morning even though the calls only lasted a couple of minutes. If you are reading this forum in a nice Sunday afternoon or evening, you certainly deserve a medal for being a good mother.

    For all mothers on this forum (and a few fathers):

    Happy Mother's Day!


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    #101698 - 05/08/11 09:38 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: jack'smom]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Originally Posted By: jack'smom
    I disagree. That is why people pay so much money to get into prestigious undergrads since they believe it will lead to access into prestigious grad programs, which in turn could lead to better-paying jobs.


    The fact that people believe it doesn't make it true. It is natural when people are paying a quarter of a million dollars for a degree that someone else is paying $70,000 they are going to believe they've purchased some exclusive privilege. What the research shows is that when you look at similar candidates who attended an Ivy versus a less selective public university the outcomes are very similar. The key is to compare apples to apples - look at selective school students versus students who were accepted to selective schools but opted for state universities.

    When we are talking about acceleration and students in the league of students who attend the Davidson Academy we are talking about outliers. Success for this group doesn't depend on an Ivy League education. I agree with the other poster who suggested you look at top flight grad programs and look where students are coming from. Sure, you'll see Ivies, but also plenty of state school grads as well as grads from small liberal arts colleges you've probably never heard of. They most important thing is what students do with their education while they are in college. Lazy students don't do well no matter where they go. Smart, go getters can do amazing things at all sorts of schools. It is that undergraduate record, research, scores that get students into grad school.

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    #101700 - 05/08/11 09:53 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: CFK]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Originally Posted By: CFK


    This is very true! What many parents of young children on this board don't factor in is that you can make all the plans in the world about your child's education, but implementing them with a 4 year old is very different than with a 14 year old.


    Yes! Some kids need a lot more than acceleration in one or two subjects. Making up a lot of rules in your mind about how it will need to play out in order for the child to be happy isn't really worth anyone's time.

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    #101702 - 05/08/11 10:47 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: passthepotatoes]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: passthepotatoes
    Originally Posted By: jack'smom
    I think the question was- where do many of the graduates from DYS' school in Reno go? According to their website, many go to U. Neveada-Reno.


    My question would be why does that matter. I would assume the population going to the DA are students who are all intellectually capable of going to highly selective colleges if they wished


    Agreed.

    Also, and I'm only speculating here... but I expect that some DA graduates are very young and may not want to move thousands of miles away.


    Edited by Val (05/08/11 10:47 PM)

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    #101704 - 05/09/11 02:23 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    I disagree with one thing you said potatoes. The kids in Davidson Academy are outliers. Just being PG doesn't make you an outlier.

    And I am not sure about outcomes from state colleges and Harvard or Yale. They wouldn't have the endowments they have if their grads had the same outcomes. The endowments are just donations from their alumni.

    Haven't heard of a state school getting those kinds of returns from its graduates, even with the greater numbers.

    Ren

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    #101707 - 05/09/11 04:24 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    Note: I was referring to Outliers as referenced by the book. Not statistical ones, because then PG kids are just as much outliers as kids with an IQ of 50. You can group them together as outliers.

    Ren

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    #101725 - 05/09/11 07:32 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    I disagree with one thing you said potatoes. The kids in Davidson Academy are outliers. Just being PG doesn't make you an outlier.


    It makes you a statistical outlier. DA has strict admission requirements. Students who are capable of being admitted there are exactly the same sort of students who end up with great college prospects.

    Originally Posted By: Wren
    And I am not sure about outcomes from state colleges and Harvard or Yale. They wouldn't have the endowments they have if their grads had the same outcomes. The endowments are just donations from their alumni..


    Of course we know that there is a long legacy of privilege associated with the Ivy League. I'd suggest you take a look at the book The Price of Admission.

    I'm not talking about the average graduate of each school. I won't argue that the average graduate of Ohio State and the average graduate of Harvard are likely to make the same amount of money. Rather, that the student who could have been admitted to Harvard but chose to attend Ohio State is likely to have the same outcome. In other words, it isn't something about about attending a college in the Ivy League athletic conference that is changing students into people with top prospects. And, of course that isn't even to get into the many fantastic liberal arts colleges (Kenyon, Macalester, Reed, etc.) that many people on the East Coast have never heard of. Graduate school admissions from these colleges are fantastic probably in large part because in an undergraduate only environment students are in small classes, no TAs and plenty of nurturing. These are factors that parents may assume their child will be getting for their $50,000 at an Ivy League college but it depends greatly on the school. At some students will be in large classes and get very little attention from faculty.

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    #101727 - 05/09/11 07:49 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: passthepotatoes]
    kerripat Offline
    Junior Member

    Registered: 04/22/11
    Posts: 29
    Originally Posted By: passthepotatoes
    I agree with the other poster who suggested you look at top flight grad programs and look where students are coming from. Sure, you'll see Ivies, but also plenty of state school grads as well as grads from small liberal arts colleges you've probably never heard of. They most important thing is what students do with their education while they are in college. Lazy students don't do well no matter where they go. Smart, go getters can do amazing things at all sorts of schools. It is that undergraduate record, research, scores that get students into grad school.


    Totally agree! I know it's anecdotal, but I started a top-10 economics phD program (never finished), and none of the American students were from Ivies. I went to Pitt for undergrad, the other two from my class went to University of Miami (Ohio) and Northwestern (and the other 15 were from other countries). Going to an Ivy for undergrad matters more to the student who is probably not going to be a stand-out in academics and is very interested in making connections.

    College is what you make of it.

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    #101728 - 05/09/11 08:33 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    newmom21C Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/11/09
    Posts: 342
    Here's some anecdotal evidence from my life:

    I know 5 students who were radically accelerated. 2 went to Ivies, the other 3 went to very well recognized schools that were not Ivies (one for sure didn't go for financial reasons because his family was extremely well-off and the other two had full-scholarships). The two who went to Ivies I have not kept in touch with so I'm not sure about their success but the other three have gone on to top graduate schools (not Ivies either but top for their respective fields).

    Also, DH and I both worked at an Ivy for some time (neither of us ever studied at an Ivy, though) and I only knew one student there who did her undergraduate at an Ivy, the rest were either from small well-recognized private colleges, state schools, or from abroad.

    I've found in my field, at least, that connections/references/pure motivation leads much more to success than the school choice. I have a feeling that's probably different in larger fields like medicine/law/business where you just have a massive pool of candidates but in my field it seems to be the case.

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    #101741 - 05/09/11 10:21 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: passthepotatoes]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2601
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: passthepotatoes
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    I disagree with one thing you said potatoes. The kids in Davidson Academy are outliers. Just being PG doesn't make you an outlier.


    It makes you a statistical outlier. DA has strict admission requirements. Students who are capable of being admitted there are exactly the same sort of students who end up with great college prospects.

    Originally Posted By: Wren
    And I am not sure about outcomes from state colleges and Harvard or Yale. They wouldn't have the endowments they have if their grads had the same outcomes. The endowments are just donations from their alumni..


    Of course we know that there is a long legacy of privilege associated with the Ivy League. I'd suggest you take a look at the book The Price of Admission.

    I'm not talking about the average graduate of each school. I won't argue that the average graduate of Ohio State and the average graduate of Harvard are likely to make the same amount of money. Rather, that the student who could have been admitted to Harvard but chose to attend Ohio State is likely to have the same outcome. In other words, it isn't something about about attending a college in the Ivy League athletic conference that is changing students into people with top prospects.


    I think passthepotatoes is correct that most of the difference in outcomes between Ivy League and public college graduates is due to student characteristics present at matriculation. Some research has found that

    Children smart enough to get into elite schools may not need to bother
    by ALAN B. KRUEGER
    New York Times
    April 27, 2000
    http://www.krueger.princeton.edu/04_27_2000.htm

    The working paper version of the article reported above,

    Dale, Stacy Berg and Alan B. Krueger. "Estimating The Payoff Of Attending A More Selective College: An Application Of Selection On Observables And Unobservables," Quarterly Journal of Economics, 2002, v107(4,Nov), 1491-1527.

    is at http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/409revised.pdf .

    An update of the original study, "Estimating the Return to College Selectivity over the Career Using Administrative Earning Data" is at http://www.irs.princeton.edu/pubs/pdfs/563.pdf .
    _________________________
    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell

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    #101746 - 05/09/11 10:33 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    HowlerKarma Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    I think that is absolutely correct.

    The biggest differences between two college students (or graduates) is not where they went to school-- but how. wink

    I'd also say that, in terms of HIRING decisions in academia, once you are outside of the Ivies, then 'diversity' of experience (ie-- different undergrad and grad schools) still really matters.

    This is a very real consideration in hiring in most colleges and universities, and the insular thinking promoted by staying in the same ivory tower for seven to twelve years is regarded as somewhat unhealthy-- even within the Academy.
    _________________________
    Schrödinger's cat walks into a bar. And doesn't.

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    #101756 - 05/09/11 11:50 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    If you want to stay in academia, I think that is valid advice but what if you want to pursue something else?

    I am not saying you aren't a doctor if you attend medical school in Iowa, but what is the likelihood of getting the residency you want? I cannot believe how competitive it is to get a good residency these days.

    Or if you want a job in a top law firm or investment bank.

    Investment banks tend to like a few schools and yes, the focus is on the MBA but getting into the MBA is competitive too and more kids from top schools tend to get into Harvard and Wharton MBA programs.

    But if you want to stay in academia, that is a different story.

    Since I went to Wall Street, I am not familiar and will take your experience as knowledge.

    Ren

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    #101757 - 05/09/11 12:18 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Val Offline
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    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    I went to a Seven Sisters college and know a lot of people who went to public and private colleges in the US. I can attest to how things are very different at a private college.

    The biggest asset, for me at least, was that private colleges run classes even if only three people sign up. In fact, sometimes this is by design and is called a "seminar class." In contrast, public colleges (especially community colleges) cancel classes with fewer than 20 students as a matter of policy. They also limit enrollment (as do private colleges). Unlike the private colleges, though, State U students sometimes have to wait a year to take a course required for their majors, and many end up spending extra time in college or doing a summer session as a result. Unless things have changed recently, this won't happen at most private colleges (correct me if I'm wrong). Either way, it's nowhere near as common at the private ones.

    From the perspective of a learning environment, this sucks.

    Alternatively, if you attend a big state university (UMASS, Penn State), you'll have more major options. I took a couple classes at UMASS because they weren't offered at my college. That was nice.

    So this is a big advantage at the big universities.

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    #101760 - 05/09/11 12:48 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    HowlerKarma Offline
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    Registered: 02/05/11
    Posts: 5181
    I went to a small, regional public university as an undergrad. I had no trouble getting into tier 1 graduate programs-- even the Ivies.

    One of my graduating class went to MIT for grad school, in fact, and I was accepted into several prestigious schools (UVA, U-Rochester, RPI, etc.) We were a graduating class of... um.. five. We were not 'atypical' for that department. So that probably tells you something about the culture.

    It was in some ways more like a private school experience-- but without the $$ for modern equipment. On the other hand, the equipment that we did have, I was allowed (encouraged, even) to touch and fiddle with. There were less than twenty people in my Physical Chemistry course, and we did ALL of our own prep work for laboratory exercises (sometimes days' worth). As I only later learned, in the sciences, such students are considered to be VERY valuble as graduate students, because they are so often fearless and already pretty self-sufficient. We're not technician and post-doc dependent people, in other words. we just roll up our sleeves and throw on a lab coat. wink

    My graduate school experiences also suggest that grad students come from all kinds of backgrounds, and that there is no one 'recipe' for success there. Later, as a graduate admissions committee member, it was clear that it would be a lot nicer if there were that kind of recipe through which to filter applications. But there isn't. It's hard to evaluate 'good work ethic' and 'determination' on paper.

    Since I've never worked on Wall Street, Wren, I will definitely defer to your assessment of reality there in terms of Harvard and Wharton.

    But I have to wonder if "good" is the right term to use in terms of seeking residencies...
    after all, if we're talking about people entering CLINICAL practices, rather than academia, then it seems that the best training for being a doctor probably depends a lot on the individual. Placement in residencies is often about fit. Well, and professional interests, which in the case of our hypothetical Iowan med student, might well lead his/her heart right back to Des Moines.

    Now, to be fair here, I've not had a lot of first-hand experience with medical residency per se, but I do have a fair amount with veterinary and pharmacy residency, as well as nursing program residency placements.

    Yes, it's "competitive" in terms of landing your first choice-- particularly in the market of a very large urban environment where there may be several programs feeing the system, or in a particularly SMALL market with a large program feeding into it... but it's seldom the case that students in the upper 2/3rds of their class get "lousy" placements. Most are less than ideal for personal, rather than 'professional' reasons. Mostly those who are disappointed or upset tend to be so because they wanted to move. Or didn't.

    On the other hand, some of the less ideal positions have exposed those candidates to situations that led to a lot of personal and professional growth that the person wouldn't have SOUGHT on their own. (Inner-city hospital pharmacy as opposed to cushy suburban clinic pharmacy, for example, or a small vet clinic externship as opposed to a 24hr, state-of-the-art urban veterinary hospital.)

    I do know that a number of those people chose to return to those same "unfavorable" locations as professionals. So while they might have been disappointed in the initial placement, something drew them back. My senior lab partner is a general practitioner with a subspecialty in women's health, on a reservation, and I can tell without a doubt that she considers this a towering success. It's not very prestigious, nor is it glamorous or particularly lucrative-- but I hardly feel that I'm qualified to tell her she's wrong.

    I wonder, truly, if NOT getting exactly what we think we want isn't actually better for us in the long run. Philosophical question, I know, but I think that it ties in to the notion of going to an Ivy versus somewhere else.

    _________________________
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    #101764 - 05/09/11 01:40 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Originally Posted By: Wren


    I am not saying you aren't a doctor if you attend medical school in Iowa, but what is the likelihood of getting the residency you want? I cannot believe how competitive it is to get a good residency these days.


    Originally Posted By: Wren
    Or if you want a job in a top law firm


    I believe it will depend a lot on how you define "good" or "top". If you define these as primarily about proximity to Manhattan then I am sure you are right. If you define "good" and "top" the way I do then it is something different. If our hypothetical Iowan's hope is to be enter state politics or become a senior partner at an Iowa firm they will probably get farther from the state flagship than they will with the prestigious East Coast degree.

    The one place where students coming out of Ivies and top prestigious schools are going to be at an advantage is if they are aiming for careers in business that are based on connections. That's a pretty narrow slice of people though. If what your kid wants is to be an academic, go to med school or go to law school they can certainly do that coming out of a state university or non top 100 private. I agree with the poster who noted that students who are the "big fish" often are in a great situation at some these schools. They can get lots of faculty attention and access to lab resources far beyond what they might get at a bigger reputation school.

    And, again, there is no reason to believe top students from state universities and small less known privates won't be able to get into good graduate programs.


    Edited by passthepotatoes (05/09/11 01:42 PM)

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    #101766 - 05/09/11 01:43 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    knute974 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/22/09
    Posts: 683
    Loc: controlled chaos
    In law, there are places where having a degree from the "right" school makes a big difference. I went to an Ivy undergrad and the UC system for law school, mainly for financial reasons. The vast majority of people in my law school class went to Ivies or Stanford. There were some that did their undergrad in the UC system, one from Notre Dame, and one from Georgetown that I recall. There were some diversity students who went to some lower tier schools.

    After law school, I returned to the east coast and worked at large NY and DC law firms. I interviewed a lot of people when I was an associate. I can't remember anyone who I interviewed for an associate position who was not from the top 5 law schools, most went to Harvard. Also, almost all had clerked for federal judges -- another place where pedigree matters. These places were obsessed with where you went to school. The few people who worked there who did not have the right academic pedigree (usually an associate who came with a partner they wanted from another firm) never made it to partner. A lot of them were told up front that they were not on the partner track. One man was a favorite of a large oil company client -- they eventually made him "of counsel" to appease the client. These people were told by the managing partner not to display their diplomas from these "lesser" schools in their office. I worked with many of these people and could not see any difference in the quality of their work. I remember one woman who came with a judge that they hired. She was a phenomenal writer, super smart, efficient and willing to bill 250+ hours per month. I recall a partner making disparaging remarks about where she went to school and how they would never let her be anything more than a contract attorney. She eventually left the firm and, last I heard, is a professional clerk for a federal court judge.

    I've been out of the legal profession for over ten years now. I can't imagine that much has changed.

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    #101767 - 05/09/11 01:45 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    jack'smom Offline
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    Posts: 757
    It is much more difficult to get into med/law school coming out of a state university (or a no-name university) than a big name university. Sure, if you have a 2.00 GPA at Harvard or a 4.00 GPA at a state university, that may play into it. But I don't think it's true to just dismiss the power of how much help having a big name university on your resume can provide.
    Here in California, I hope my kids don't go to Berkeley. It's been hammered by budget cuts, there are a zillion kids there, the labs/resources just aren't there. A private university, although expensive, maybe a better long-term investment for them.

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    #101768 - 05/09/11 01:45 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Val]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Registered: 04/07/09
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    Originally Posted By: Val

    The biggest asset, for me at least, was that private colleges run classes even if only three people sign up. In fact, sometimes this is by design and is called a "seminar class." In contrast, public colleges (especially community colleges) cancel classes with fewer than 20 students as a matter of policy.


    I agree this can be a real concern especially in some of the more cash strapped states - California is particularly a mess right now. It is far from universal across the country though. School policies vary in how aggressive they are about cutting courses and how hard it is to get requirements. Also, at many state universities gifted students may have the option of admittance into honors programs which often offer the perk of registering first.

    [/quote]

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    #101769 - 05/09/11 01:51 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: jack'smom]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Originally Posted By: jack'smom
    It is much more difficult to get into med/law school coming out of a state university (or a no-name university) than a big name university.


    Do you have any evidence to prove this? I've never seen any research that supports what you are saying. And, I've see quite a bit of anecdotal evidence of state u or less well know college grads doing very well in admissions.

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    #101771 - 05/09/11 02:11 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: passthepotatoes]
    Bostonian Offline
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    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2601
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: passthepotatoes
    Originally Posted By: jack'smom
    It is much more difficult to get into med/law school coming out of a state university (or a no-name university) than a big name university.


    Do you have any evidence to prove this? I've never seen any research that supports what you are saying. And, I've see quite a bit of anecdotal evidence of state u or less well know college grads doing very well in admissions.


    I have not, either. Regarding law school, a recent NYT article

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html
    Law Students Lose the Grant Game as Schools Win

    mentions that law schools offer scholarhips to improve their selectivity, which is based student GPA and LSAT scores. I did not see any adjustment of GPA for prestige of undergraduate college, and given the grade inflation at the Ivies, doing so might be double counting. I think an aspiring lawyer can get into law school from a public university, as long as he/she has good grades and a high LSAT. I'm not a lawyer, so this is conjecture.
    _________________________
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    #101772 - 05/09/11 02:15 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: passthepotatoes]
    knute974 Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/22/09
    Posts: 683
    Loc: controlled chaos
    Originally Posted By: passthepotatoes

    If our hypothetical Iowan's hope is to be enter state politics or become a senior partner at an Iowa firm they will probably get farther from the state flagship than they will with the prestigious East Coast degree.

    I agree with you. Law can be very provincial. If you know where you want to settle, going to the best school in the area/state will probably be sufficient. The challenge is knowing where you are going to end up.

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    #101775 - 05/09/11 02:39 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    From Harvard law school site. Here's a list of the undergraduate institutions of students currently in the law school. http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/undergrads.html
    Lots of schools you'd expect and lots you might not such as Arizona State, Valdosta State, Calvin College, University of Alabama, University of Mississippi, Westmont College, and many more.

    From the Harvard med school site: "What undergraduate institution should I attend? Do Ivy League students have an advantage over other students?
    Harvard Medical School is looking for people with broad interests and talents, not for students from particular academic institutions. Attend an undergraduate college that will challenge you both academically and personally." http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=admissions


    Edited by passthepotatoes (05/09/11 02:48 PM)

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    #101776 - 05/09/11 02:51 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    jack'smom Offline
    Member

    Registered: 01/02/10
    Posts: 757
    Case in point.
    Harvard Med SAYS they want diversity. Having gone there, and still interviewing for them, etc., I can that this is not strictly true. By and large, the people who were there and from lesser known schools tended to be- my friend from U. of Missouri whose dad graduated from there and she was a nationally ranked runner. Several African-American students from Spelman or Morehouse who were the first person in their family to go to college, that type of thing.
    It's harder to get into top schools coming from lesser known schools. That doesn't mean it's impossible or can't be done.

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    #101779 - 05/09/11 03:15 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    If it is better to go instate if you aspire to local politics, what was Bill Clinton thinking when going to Yale since he wanted to become governor of Arkansas?

    And like Jack'smom says: not that you cannot get in, but you were probably the first in the class, did something special.

    Also, rapid acceleration must be very fashionable. Disney's new show is about 11 year olds in high school. Move over Hannah Montana, bring in the highly gifted.

    Ren

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    #101783 - 05/09/11 03:49 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Mark D. Offline
    Member

    Registered: 12/31/69
    Posts: 271
    Hello,

    In response to a post from much earlier, for the amount of graduates The Davidson Academy has had, only a few have gone on to attend the University of Nevada, Reno. For a list of universities Academy students have gone on to attend, click here: http://www.davidsonacademy.unr.edu/Articles.aspx?ArticleID=249&NavID=0_40. Of course the 2011 class will be announced this week, so a few more colleges will be added to this list.

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    #101784 - 05/09/11 04:04 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687


    Originally Posted By: Wren
    And like Jack'smom says: not that you cannot get in, but you were probably the first in the class, did something special.


    Again, we are talking out top students. Students who could get into highly selective schools but instead chose their state universities. Of course we aren't talking about the average graduate - these are top students.




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    #101785 - 05/09/11 04:06 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: jack'smom]
    passthepotatoes Offline
    Member

    Registered: 04/07/09
    Posts: 687
    Originally Posted By: jack'smom

    It's harder to get into top schools coming from lesser known schools. That doesn't mean it's impossible or can't be done.


    What do you make of the Harvard Law list. There are a wide variety of schools represented. I think there is actually a strong argument that you may be better off coming out of obscure state university than being yet another Ivy applicant pile.

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    #101786 - 05/09/11 04:07 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    Also, rapid acceleration must be very fashionable. Disney's new show is about 11 year olds in high school. Move over Hannah Montana, bring in the highly gifted.

     

    I hope so.  Does that mean the the mainstream teachers will become more supportive of educationally eager students?!  (and more tolerant of the kid that noticesz every mistake on the blackboard  well, <blushes>  maybe they wouldn't notice every little mistake if there was something more productive to do in a school day than read a book while writing and doodling and listening to the teacher.  (smaller)  which makes the kid be treated kind of like nothing more than a bother at times.)))Yay!  Yeah.  Too late for my childhood but just in time for my kids.  I vaguely remember being told at least twice not to do all the answer in the textbook for the year ahead in the first couple of weeks, just so it was already done.  And to stay in my seat and quit talking because I was done in ten minutes every paper they gave you thirty to do.  I'm not trying to race my kid to colleg or out of the house I'm just tickled pink that I see more options. Eta: I'm excited that I can do more than just tell my kid "be quiet and listen to the teacher because you're a kid and that's what kids do.". Which is fine, and of course I'll do that too. But this "teaching in the zone of proximal development" just feels so much more just.


    Edited by La Texican (05/09/11 04:15 PM)
    _________________________
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    #101824 - 05/10/11 08:33 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    I think the point, thank you Mark, is not the list of schools but percentages. If one kid in 1000 goes to U of Mississippi but 200 go to MIT, that is very different, even though they are both represented.

    And, my question was, how they did. Did they enter college early, how early, what was their path after? Maybe you don't have longitudinal data yet. But those questions are interesting and would be helpful as we try and earn support for our children following.

    Ren

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    #101829 - 05/10/11 09:28 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    E Mama Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/23/11
    Posts: 64
    DA told us the average age of their graduates is 15/16 years old.
    We were not told what percentage went directly into college.


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    #101831 - 05/10/11 09:43 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    I think the point, thank you Mark, is not the list of schools but percentages. If one kid in 1000 goes to U of Mississippi but 200 go to MIT, that is very different, even though they are both represented.

    And, my question was, how they did. Did they enter college early, how early, what was their path after? Maybe you don't have longitudinal data yet. But those questions are interesting and would be helpful as we try and earn support for our children following.

    Ren


    I've re-read your posts, and I'm not sure what you're looking for. You talked about "when are where," in reference to college and grad school, and I've seen a lot of references to the Ivy League.

    Are you primarily interested in moving to a place with schools whose graduates go to the Ivies in high numbers? If this is the case, pick any of the older prep schools back East. Emma Willard (girls; 9-12). Choate (co-ed; 9-12). Exeter NH. Andover MA. New Jersey is full of exclusive private K-12 schools. Etc. Just do a google search. If you want to go out west, try Harker. I expect that kids who do well at the DA will have a good shot at admission to their schools of choice.

    I completely understand wanting to get out of the New York City public school system and all its insanities. But at the same time, your daughter is only in kindergarten or 1st grade, right? It seems early to be digging this deep into college admissions statistics. What if she wants to go to the Colorado School of Mines to study geology? Or film studies at UCLA? Paths and ambitions can change a lot in 11 or 12 years.



    Edited by Val (05/10/11 09:51 AM)
    Edit Reason: Clarity

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    #101832 - 05/10/11 10:00 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Val]
    Bostonian Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/14/10
    Posts: 2601
    Loc: MA
    Originally Posted By: Val
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    I think the point, thank you Mark, is not the list of schools but percentages. If one kid in 1000 goes to U of Mississippi but 200 go to MIT, that is very different, even though they are both represented.

    And, my question was, how they did. Did they enter college early, how early, what was their path after? Maybe you don't have longitudinal data yet. But those questions are interesting and would be helpful as we try and earn support for our children following.

    Ren


    I've re-read your posts, and I'm not sure what you're looking for. You talked about "when are where," in reference to college and grad school, and I've seen a lot of references to the Ivy League.

    Are you primarily interested in moving to a place with schools whose graduates go to the Ivies in high numbers? If this is the case, pick any of the older prep schools back East. Emma Willard (girls; 9-12). Choate (co-ed; 9-12). Exeter NH. Andover MA. New Jersey is full of exclusive private K-12 schools. Etc. Just do a google search. If you want to go out west, try Harker. I expect that kids who do well at the DA will have a good shot at admission to their schools of choice.


    A relatively high fraction of students from those schools attend Ivies, but many of their parents want them to attend Ivies, and the schools screen students for high SSAT/ISEE scores to increase their Ivy placement. It is not clear to me that attending a prep school per se instead of a good public high school increases the chance of attending an Ivy.

    Originally Posted By: Val


    I completely understand wanting to get out of the New York City public school system and all its insanities. But at the same time, your daughter is only in kindergarten or 1st grade, right? It seems early to be digging this deep into college admissions statistics. What if she wants to go to the Colorado School of Mines to study geology? Or film studies at UCLA? Paths and ambitions can change a lot in 11 or 12 years.



    NYC has gifted programs from 1st grade, and it has selective high schools such as Stuyvesant and Bronx High School of Science. In some respects its system seems more rational and meritocratic to me than that in much of the rest of the country, where one's school depends entirely on one's address.
    _________________________
    "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." - George Orwell

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    #101837 - 05/10/11 10:41 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Bostonian]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Bostonian
    NYC has gifted programs from 1st grade, and it has selective high schools such as Stuyvesant and Bronx High School of Science. In some respects its system seems more rational and meritocratic to me than that in much of the rest of the country, where one's school depends entirely on one's address.


    That wasn't my point. The NYC public school system is mad. Some students end up spending three hours a day just commuting. Getting into a school you like requires an insanely high amount of activity (parental and student) and there are no guarantees.

    It isn't as meritocratic as you might think, either. If it was, the five-year-old kids with the highest IQs would get into the gifted kindergartens, with slots assigned in reverse order of IQ. But they don't and it doesn't work that way. A story about New York high schools in the New York Times this week indicates that the computer selection system is opaque, and that there are apparent inconsistencies in admissions.

    Originally Posted By: NYT article
    Still, he said he was shocked when Radcliffe was shut out while students with below-average grades got into Midwood. “There was nothing I could tell the parents,” Mr. Mareus said. “I was baffled.”


    The comments give a lot of insight into the process, too.

    I would want no part of that mess, and I can understand why others might not either.


    Edited by Val (05/10/11 10:42 AM)

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    #101839 - 05/10/11 10:48 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    I do not understand your response to my question Val. I didn't start anything about IVs but joined in. I was interested in rapid acceleration. How kids did after they went to college early. I didn't mean 15 or 16. That isn't rapid acceleration in my mind.

    And why pay 50K per year for high school when Stuyvesant is free and Harvard loves the grads. I think last year they took 26 out of 700 or something.

    I did a post about available classes because we were thinking of moving but it seems very hard to duplicate what DD has here.

    Her Chinese class is 2.5 hours every Sat morning and costs $300 oer semester, with online homework and review. Nobody has mentioned an area that has the weekly science classes like she takes at the American Museum of Natural History. They are amazing classes with great resources, since they use the museum and get to go into all the new exhibits before they open.

    My good friend's daughter decided to spend her last couple of years at a boarding school in CT. The exmissions were not so great, unless you had the scores and the legacy -- much like if DD goes to Stuyvesant. I expect her to have the scores and she has legacy.

    I am not sure she is into mining engineering (I thought of switching in my 2nd year). But if she decides she wants to go there, great. But she doesn't need Andover for that.

    I do not get your point Val.

    Ren

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    #101843 - 05/10/11 11:04 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    Maybe you don't have longitudinal data yet


    I would highly suggest that you apply for DYS because it seems like you're trying to piece this togeather by yourself (along with us). While I personally hope you stay active on this board because we enjoy "puzzling it out" here, I think DYS gives you a personal councelor who has experience, resources, and data. They've already figured some of these questions out with a list of relevant answers, I believe. I think anyone over the age of 5 can apply. I think DYS is international which makes it all more interesting. I know I have to be supportive when my kid is old enough if they chose to go abroad for college (yours will be bilingual, right?) or even skip college and make a military career (there's a lot in my family. It's in their blood. My babies.)
    Also browse the "college confidential" board, if you haven't already. It's a little interactive board that let's you know who's kids are going to which schools, why, and how. But I wasn't trying to be all "whatever" when I said the kids gotta make their own choice after a point and the Mamma should be a reliable resource. It's her job.
    _________________________
    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar

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    #101844 - 05/10/11 11:14 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    E Mama Offline
    Member

    Registered: 02/23/11
    Posts: 64
    Wren,
    Is your child a DYS? I would suggest going to the private forum for answers from parents of older kids.
    What do you consider rapid acceleration? Do you really see a point of having a child go to college younger than 15?

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    #101846 - 05/10/11 11:18 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Val Offline
    Member

    Registered: 09/01/07
    Posts: 3290
    Loc: California
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    I do not understand your response to my question Val.
    Ren


    As I mentioned, I was just trying to understand what your question is here. Here's why I thought you were focusing on Ivy admissions:

    Originally Posted By: Wren
    And I am not sure about outcomes from state colleges and Harvard or Yale. They wouldn't have the endowments they have if their grads had the same outcomes.

    I am not saying you aren't a doctor if you attend medical school in Iowa, but what is the likelihood of getting the residency you want? I cannot believe how competitive it is to get a good residency these days.

    Or if you want a job in a top law firm or investment bank.

    Investment banks tend to like a few schools and yes, the focus is on the MBA but getting into the MBA is competitive too and more kids from top schools tend to get into Harvard and Wharton MBA programs.

    I think the point, thank you Mark, is not the list of schools but percentages. If one kid in 1000 goes to U of Mississippi but 200 go to MIT, that is very different...

    And why pay 50K per year for high school when Stuyvesant is free and Harvard loves the grads. I think last year they took 26 out of 700 or something.

    I expect her to have the scores and she has legacy.



    These quotes are what make me think you're trying to optimize chances for Ivy admission. You've said you're thinking of leaving NYC, so I was throwing out non-NYC suggestions. I wasn't trying to be rude. I was trying to help. Enough said. If you want me to stop responding, I will. No worries.

    How long would the commute to Stuyvesant be? Quality of life could be an issue if she'll be travelling a long way.

    The Bay area has lots of options like the ones you describe. We have a plethora of language programs, loads of science camps throughout the year and colleges everywhere. High school students can enroll in community college classes free of charge. Plus it's sunny here. What about the Long Island School for the Gifted? I've heard good things about it, and it's close to New York.

    Do you think your daughter will finish high school when she's 14 or 13 or 12? If so, the DA might be a good choice, because there will be other kids her age there.

    My son is 11 and will be in 8th grade next year. He's at a combined middle/high school and the age- and social-outlook-gap is already big WRT the high schoolers (think of an pre-pubescent kid surrounded by 14-18 year olds). I have a friend who graduated when he was 15. He told me that he was too young to socialize and he missed that terribly. Not the first time I've heard that. I'm not saying that social mismatch problems WILL happen, but there's a high probability, and I think it's essential to consider it and create strategies to address it.


    Edited by Val (05/10/11 11:21 AM)
    Edit Reason: Clarity

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    #101848 - 05/10/11 11:30 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    It totally agree about social issues around middle school. I remember still looking very young as my classmates breasts were expanding and some started sexually active.

    First, you mentioned the Bay area programs. But does the museum have a weekly science class that starts as young as at least grade school (AMNH starts at 3 actually and runs through high school) And the PhD program is there so high school students can work with PhD students on projects.

    And are the language programs similar? I don't you can beat $600 per year with online support of homework and lessons. She has 2.5 hours in a class with age mates each week.

    Stuveysant is just downtown. 30 minute subway ride on the westside without delays, door to door.

    There are some here that travel 45 minutes to an hour for elementary grades. I think she can handle 30 minutes in high school.

    Quality of life is the big issue. Because there seem to be so many options.

    But that has nothing to do with rapid acceleration.

    Ren


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    #101852 - 05/10/11 11:49 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: La Texican]
    Grinity Offline
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    Originally Posted By: La Texican
    [ I think DYS gives you a personal councelor who has experience, resources, and data. They've already figured some of these questions out with a list of relevant answers, I believe. I think anyone over the age of 5 can apply. I think DYS is international which makes it all more interesting.

    Yes, DYS does have personal 'Family Consultants' and yes they do try to be helpful, mostly by connecting families who have 'been there and done that' with other families who are trying to decide amoung options. But no, the 'FCs' probably won't share data - although the families on the elist called 'early college' probably will share personal data, if asked nicely.

    One can only apply to DYS if one is:
    Quote:
    Q. Who may apply?
    Anyone may apply who:

    •Is between the ages of 5 and 16;
    •Fulfills the Qualification Criteria;
    •Is a U.S. Citizen residing in the United States, or a Permanent Resident of the United States residing in the United States


    see http://www.davidsongifted.org/youngschol...stions_381.aspx

    for more details.

    Smiles,
    Grinity
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    #101855 - 05/10/11 12:12 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    HowlerKarma Offline
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    I'm sort of perplexed since I think that the term "radical" is being used differently given context in this thread.

    My daughter, for example, has been "triple-skipped" and will graduate from high school just before her 15th birthday.

    There is little question that educators consider that "radical acceleration."

    But I am getting the impression that being a 15yo college student is not a circumstance which calls for that particular term. (Which is fine-- I don't really care one way or the other-- it's just perplexing given the duality and seemingly contradictory nature of the way it's being used, that's all.)

    So what constitutes "radical" acceleration, then?

    College at 14?

    At 10?

    I think most colleges view it as anything less than about seventeen.
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    #101859 - 05/10/11 12:24 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Bostonian Offline
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    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    I'm sort of perplexed since I think that the term "radical" is being used differently given context in this thread.

    My daughter, for example, has been "triple-skipped" and will graduate from high school just before her 15th birthday.

    There is little question that educators consider that "radical acceleration."

    But I am getting the impression that being a 15yo college student is not a circumstance which calls for that particular term. (Which is fine-- I don't really care one way or the other-- it's just perplexing given the duality and seemingly contradictory nature of the way it's being used, that's all.)

    So what constitutes "radical" acceleration, then?



    Following the paper below, I suggest defining "radical acceleration" as being an educational path leading to high school graduation (or college entry) three or more years before the usual age.

    http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10349.aspx
    Radical acceleration and early entry to college: A review of the research.
    Gross, M. & Van Vliet, H.
    Gifted Child Quarterly
    National Association for Gifted Children (NAGC)
    Vol. 49, No. 2
    Spring 2005

    "Few educational interventions have been as comprehensively studied as acceleration and few have acquired as compelling a body of empirical evidence for their success. Acceleration was one of the few educational procedures endorsed by Shore, Cornell, Robinson, and Ward (1991) in their comprehensive analysis of research in gifted education as being strongly validated by research. Yet, many educators are wary of possible ill effects of acceleration, citing fears for both the intellectual and affective well-being of students (Daurio, 1979; Southern, Jones, & Fiscus 1989). Particular concern is expressed when the acceleration under consideration is radical, that is, it employs a range of procedures leading to school graduation 3 or more years earlier than usual."
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    #101860 - 05/10/11 12:35 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Bostonian]
    Val Offline
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    Emm. Wren used the word "rapid," which is why I was asking what she meant, exactly.

    To be more specific:

    "Radical" in the way HK just defined it?

    "Radical" in the way Bostonian just defined it?

    "Rapid" as in, to learn two or more years worth of material in a single academic year (so 2nd and 3rd grade and maybe more done in one year), maybe even after a skip?

    Etc?

    Val

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    #101892 - 05/10/11 04:09 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Isn't rapid used in the phrase rapid acceleration, used to describe acceleration. Acceleration means faster. So rapid acceleration means really, really fast.

    Now, maybe I am too old and rapid is an old fashioned word and I should have used radical. Is anyone using uber?

    So acceleration means faster. I shall be the one, THE ONE, to define what we mean here --- so 1-2 years. Does that work people?

    Rapid acceleration means 3-5 years. And Radical acceleration means 6+ years ahead of schedule.

    Mark, are you going to post these definitions somewhere so we don't anymore misunderstandings here?

    I think any gifted kid can do acceleration. More highly gifted kids may need acceleration and rapid-radical acceleration in the math. How much more than 2-3 years ahead needs to be in language and literature, I do not know.

    I know there are a lot of Shakespeare plays to read in high school. ---just joking.

    Ren


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    #101893 - 05/10/11 04:20 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    No. Acceleration means going faster. Accelerate means faster. You got it all wrong. Can we just vote on this already?
    I vote No on the definition of acceleration.
    I vote Yes rapid acceleration is faster than fast.
    I vote Yes radical is way faster than rapid.
    I don't think this group will vote anybody THE ONE,
    If you don't understand watch Pirates of the Carribean
    reference The Pirate King.
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    #101894 - 05/10/11 04:26 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: La Texican]
    kaibab Offline
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    Originally Posted By: La Texican
    I don't think this group will vote anybody THE ONE,
    If you don't understand watch Pirates of the Carribean
    reference The Pirate King.


    I haven't watched either Pirates, but I would think that anyone talking about THE ONE got it from the Highlander. "There can be only one!" Loved that movie. smile

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    #101895 - 05/10/11 04:27 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    HowlerKarma Offline
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    Is this the point where someone gets to be a Spanish Peacock?? grin


    My DH and DD are constantly trading Highlander insults. If it isn't Highlander, it's Monty Python. <sigh>

    Well, I was inspired to dig around after Bostonian's post. It seems that most researchers with GT interests define "radical acceleration" as 3 or more years.

    I've not heard the term "rapid" acceleration used before. I had heard "radical acceleration" used to describe a single gradeskip, however-- context, there, being that this was a regular educator without experience/interest in HG children.

    It's just interesting to me how the term is a bit more slippery than I had thought. smile

    But since learning makes me happy, I'm good. Ambiguity is fine. I'm just nosy.


    Edited by HowlerKarma (05/10/11 04:28 PM)
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    #101896 - 05/10/11 04:35 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    HowlerKarma Offline
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    Here's something interesting.

    Radical Acceleration of Highly Gifted Chidlren, Gross and van Vliet, 2004

    Lots of longitudinal anecdote included there.

    (Just figured since I took us down that rabbit hole, I owed it to everyone to attempt to offer something ON-topic for a change. LOL)
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    #101897 - 05/10/11 04:37 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: kaibab]
    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted By: kaibab
    Originally Posted By: La Texican
    I don't think this group will vote anybody THE ONE,
    If you don't understand watch Pirates of the Carribean
    reference The Pirate King.


    I haven't watched either Pirates, but I would think that anyone talking about THE ONE got it from the Highlander. "There can be only one!" Loved that movie. smile


    What about Babylon 5?

    Zathras (looking at Sinclair): "Is it The One?!?"

    (He looks more carefully)

    Zathras (dismissively): "Not The One."

    (For those who never saw the show, The One was an important theme)

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    #101898 - 05/10/11 04:40 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: kaibab]
    kaibab Offline
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    A bit more seriously . . . .

    I find all these terms more fluid in real life than I imagined them to be on paper when my child was younger. If a child is radically accelerated in one subject and "rapid" in another, then what do you call it? What about the kid doing college level stuff at 12 who decides to do a regular high school in order to have more sports and the social aspects of high school? Is the child accelerated? What about the kid who is homeschooled and way, way above level in everything, but claims age-grade level in order to compete in a national spelling bee? Or science fair? Or mathcounts? And then does differential equations on the side in middle school without official credit?

    I think really smart kids follow a variety of paths and predicting which path my child follows is difficult from month to month, let alone planning for college for a 6 yo. When my son was 6, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to work this in the future. Should I move for better schools? Should I let him skip grades? 1? 2? 5 grades? I'm still learning, but one thing I've really observed in the last several years it that what worked for other parents and families might not work for mine. The outcomes of kids in SET or the DA don't really help me. My kid will be like those children in some ways and vastly different in others. I know his situation best and have to make decision based on what I think about him and his needs, not what worked for others.

    I remember worrying whether I would know if my child was sick at 2 years old and a pediatrician said, "trust me, you'll know." If you ever touch a child with a raging fever, you know. When they are burning you, you guess they are sick! Similarly, if your child can be happy with grade level or one skip and horizontal acceleration, you'll know in time. And if your child is miserable and demands radical and more radical, you'll know. If you are listening, your child will declare his/her needs.

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    #101899 - 05/10/11 04:43 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    Ok. I booted my inner kid out. Seriously I thiNk you're talking about that young kid from revenge of the nerds when you're saying radically early college conflicts against a kid's childhood. I said this when I was looking at the unschooling crowd, you seem to want a guaranteed kind of outcome, yet you want to do things your own way.
    Which, it can be planned that way. Why not? People dedicate themselves to their family and the success of their children and more times than not it works out. I'm too generous with these opinions I like to state as facts with no sources to cite. Thanks for humoring me guys.
    So why, if average intelligence people can dedicate themselves to success and follow the formula of kindy at five and college at eighteen, can't average and above average intelligent people...,
    No, I see you weren't looking for hypothetical. Smart Boys by Barbra Kerr describes the statistics of middle aged men from a private PG school from the sixties or seventies. These men were comfortable corporate managers, not the world-changing global leaders everybody thought they would be. Several were on their 3rd marriage (often because they were too competitive in their relationships). I don't know if that's the kind of follow up you're looking for.?.
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    #101900 - 05/10/11 04:48 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    You are right La Texican, acceleration means going faster. I was using the educational context.

    And people not mapping out the path for a 6 year old, don't live in NYC where it is such a pain in the butt. I was talking to mom of another 1st grader in DD's gymnastics class and we were discussing what to do about middle school and beyond and she is got a plan of moving to Vancouver (where she is from).

    So I am not the only crazy one here, whether for gifted or not.

    I also agree that what seems to work for other parents and kids in DA, probably wouldn't work for DD, just from what I read. They profiled a lot of good sit and do your science research kind of kids. Not DD. She loves science experiments but tedium and repitition isn't going to work for her and science research is a lot of that.

    Have you found that your kids are a lot like you in nature or not? Is that a separate post?

    Ren

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    #101902 - 05/10/11 04:59 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    HowlerKarma Offline
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    Oh, it's the same post. Same thing, really...


    but the real question is whether or not understanding your child gives you any tools to get a HANDLE on any of it.


    I'd say that the answer to that one is-- "It depends on the precise blend of personality quirks."

    In my family, the answer is "no." In fact, in some ways it makes things MORE difficult. All I know is that I can learn from the mistakes that my own upbringing sheds light upon... and extrapolate from there and blend in what research exists on kids at DD's apparent LOG... and then we try... and we wait and see.

    whistle

    Because maybe there really CAN be only one... but we have three people in this household all swinging (metaphorical) broadswords over that argument at any one moment.

    Er.

    Metaphor kinda got away from me, there...


    Edited by HowlerKarma (05/10/11 05:02 PM)
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    #101907 - 05/10/11 05:20 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: kaibab]
    Bostonian Offline
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    Originally Posted By: kaibab
    A bit more seriously . . . .

    I find all these terms more fluid in real life than I imagined them to be on paper when my child was younger. If a child is radically accelerated in one subject and "rapid" in another, then what do you call it? What about the kid doing college level stuff at 12 who decides to do a regular high school in order to have more sports and the social aspects of high school? Is the child accelerated? What about the kid who is homeschooled and way, way above level in everything, but claims age-grade level in order to compete in a national spelling bee? Or science fair? Or mathcounts? And then does differential equations on the side in middle school without official credit?

    I think really smart kids follow a variety of paths and predicting which path my child follows is difficult from month to month, let alone planning for college for a 6 yo. When my son was 6, I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to work this in the future. Should I move for better schools? Should I let him skip grades? 1? 2? 5 grades? I'm still learning, but one thing I've really observed in the last several years it that what worked for other parents and families might not work for mine. The outcomes of kids in SET or the DA don't really help me. My kid will be like those children in some ways and vastly different in others. I know his situation best and have to make decision based on what I think about him and his needs, not what worked for others.


    Parents make decisions about educating their children based on their expectations of the outcomes of their actions, and I think research should inform those expectations. If for example, the research on grade-skipped children found that they often burned out and dropped out of high school and college at higher rates than IQ-matched peers who did not skip, I would very reluctant to have my children skip a grade. (The research does not find that.)
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    #101911 - 05/10/11 05:55 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    HowlerKarma Offline
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    Yes, but unfortunately, that research often seems to be retrospective anecdote more than anything else.

    So it's hard to know what it means. Especially when one examines how complex and interrelated the factors such as personality, intrinsic vs. extrinsic motivation, etc. seem to play into outcomes.

    It also begs a lot of questions regarding how those outcomes are defined in the first place.

    After all, if every remarkable MIT or CalTech graduate in physics were expected to win a Nobel Prize, a great many of them would eventually be labeled as "failures" via that particular rubric.
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    #101914 - 05/10/11 06:01 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: HowlerKarma]
    Bostonian Offline
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    Originally Posted By: HowlerKarma
    Yes, but unfortunately, that research often seems to be retrospective anecdote more than anything else.


    That's not a fair description of Terman's longitudinal research, for example.
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    #101921 - 05/10/11 06:38 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    And you have to balance their happiness now with their future happiness and try to give them enough of both.  For now you have to do it for them until they're old enough to do it for themselves.  I think the gifted part factors in that you may have to make that transition sooner rather than later whether you've accelerated or not.

      Is early desire for independence and authority over ones life part of gifted asynchronousity?  Lu-Lu and Sofie's tiger-mother taught us it could be a personality trait independent of LoG & nurture both.

      Wren if you would consider foreign exchange studentship for your daughter (she is your daughter) u might consider looking at foreign colleges as well and what age/educational requirements they have.  I mean France, Germany, China.  I haven't looked into it, but I think you should.  I have considered foreign exchange options when my kids become high schoolers (plan ahead much?) but the hubby told me not to be surprised if the boy wants to do his college in Mexico.  I haven't told the hubby yet but I wouldn't be surprised if the kids want to do their college in Europe or Asia either.  My dad told me "the world's your oyster", whatever that means:
    http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070314162158AAIvlFC

    Great topic Wren!
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    #101929 - 05/10/11 07:28 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    Now I'm the one that's way off. .. //>.>\\'... oops. That thing that was in the sixties or seventies that I was thinking about were the male presidential merit scholars between 1964 and 1968 and was followed up by Felice Kaufmann in her dissertation study for her Ph. D. 1978.  

    and the school story I remembered from the same book made a school for children identified as gifted in St. Louis in 1961 and their parents and teachers were told "they were the best candidates for the roles of "leaders of tomorrow".  This was during the Russian Sputnik era.  That's what it was, the kid's with the special gifted education seemed destine to fulfil their talents and also had vivid personality, vibrant, well on their way to success.  At the age of 50 "The men, however, had somehow, against all odds , become-well--ordinary.  They were as funny and articulate and alert as they had ever been.  But they seemed overly gentle and subdued.  They were ....middle managers, mid-level accountants, executives of small prosperous firms, and busy lawyers.  They were contented, caring, ethical guys.  However, the arching career trajectory of their youth and early adulthood seemed to have leveled out as they persued the pleasures of family life and their myriad of advocations."

    I mentioned it because you were looking for long term data, but I thought it was PG men, it was only gifted kids "identified to be the future leaders of tomorrow.". But maybe I could stretch this to make it look like I hadn't taken up all this space needlessly and scan the book again to see how kauffman's merit scholars turned out by middle age.  No, I really don't think I can make this goof-up relevant.  I've lost my touch. (pouting)
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    #101941 - 05/11/11 01:25 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    The longitudinal study of Hunter elementary mimiced Terman. All the kids identified as gifted early on and given the special treatment didn't do as well as the rejects. Kids that came in at 7th grade for the HS did better, had more motivation.

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    #101947 - 05/11/11 06:21 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Bostonian Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren
    The longitudinal study of Hunter elementary mimiced Terman. All the kids identified as gifted early on and given the special treatment didn't do as well as the rejects. Kids that came in at 7th grade for the HS did better, had more motivation.


    Could you provide a link to or citation for this study? It is difficult for me to believe that going to a gifted elementary school harms gifted students.
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    #101948 - 05/11/11 06:31 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    susandj Offline
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    I have to say that a lot of the conversation about "future leadership" strikes me as pretty silly. My son is very gifted, but is not now, and likely will not ever be, a social leader. Maybe he will come up with a major innovation in science, maybe he won't. I'm quite certain he won't be a CEO of anything.

    None of that means that he shouldn't receive gifted education at his current level. Our school system has determined that the "point" of gifted education is to "create our future leaders". What rubbish. So instead of doing math and science acceleration or enrichment for my son (who is a mathy, sciency kid), he is being offered a pullout that focuses on "social studies", "multicultural diversity", and "communication". You must be joking. And what are they going to do for his math where he is three years ahead?

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    #101962 - 05/11/11 10:09 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    Of course.  It sounds very silly because it's an excerpt from a program in the 60's.  We were in a race to space with Russia at the time.  It's from the book Smart Boys by Barbra Kerr.  
    OP the 50 year follow-ups of these old gifted programs appear to speak positively of you natural inclination twords one of they good NYC gifted programs.  
    These results may not be relevant to the subject of accelerated advancement in today's environment.

    The overwhelming evidence for the efficient thriftyness and benefits of acceleration are in the document "A Nation Deceived" and other articles.
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    #101967 - 05/11/11 11:35 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: susandj]
    knute974 Offline
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    Originally Posted By: susandj
    I have to say that a lot of the conversation about "future leadership" strikes me as pretty silly. My son is very gifted, but is not now, and likely will not ever be, a social leader. Maybe he will come up with a major innovation in science, maybe he won't. I'm quite certain he won't be a CEO of anything.

    I whole-heartedly agree. One thing that drives my crazy with a lot of these studies is that they define success as achieving notable status in your given profession.

    FWIW, I haven't read Smart Boys but I did read Barbara Kerr's Smart Girls. I found myself arguing with that book constantly, particularly how she defined success. I also felt that the cultural references were outdated in terms of opportunities open to women.

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    #101975 - 05/11/11 12:48 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    Loc: South Texas
    They were happy, gentle, prosperous ethical people with nice families.  Their goals had changed over time.  The author left me wondering if she considered their lives successful.  I wholehearted consider those outcomes successful.
    That is not to say that a exceptional education is the only way one can achieve a similar outcome by the age of fifty.  I do think it offers itself to the study of how we think nurture and a quality education affects our children's futures.  Maybe we could believe that a good education contributed to their becoming happy, gentle, prosperous ethical people with nice families.  It does reinforce the belief that once you have given your children the best education you can you must turn the reigns over to them.  By saying giving them the best education you can I do not mean just the highest achieving academics you can offer them, I mean the combination of the best of what is important to you, be it academic and factual, spiritual and interpersonal, or tolerant and respectful.  This is the legacy that you pass down to your children.  After a certain point they will claim their right to make their own decisions.  Their life will take it's own direction.  While they're young we have the opportunity to create options for them and by doing so we pass down their spiritual and intellectual inheritance.
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    #101978 - 05/11/11 01:24 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Hi Bostonian,

    I want to say it is Rena Sobotnik. I actually talked to her. She had gone to Hunter for elementary and high school and wondered why no one from Hunter did anything extraordinary. So I didn't read the research, I heard from the researcher. I was on a committee for the NY Gifted and Talented Conference, which got dismantled....another story and why NYS gifted is a mess.

    Anyway, the study made an impact at Hunter as I was talking to a mother of a grade 1 student when dd was 4 and she spoke to me about the parental concerns that the study showed.

    You know that saying that if you don't know real sorrow, you never know real joy? Perhaps you just can't motivate yourself if the path is always cleared. Like DD told Hunter she didn't want to go, her OLSAT was awful for the K admissions, when the spots are wide open. So she had to take the OLSAT again and she got into the district G&T but not the citywide accelerated. She is learning the difference because I made her take the OLSAT again, so she could have a shot. And tried for the Special Music School since the first year she refused to do 3 out of the 4 things they asked her to do.

    Here is her anxious mother trying to get her the "right education". Then she gets a piano teacher last year who teaches at Special Music school who desperately wants her in and we try again. So the whole process.

    This year we do the OLSAT again and hope for a spot -- and I can push for a spot. DD knows she had to take the stupid test again to try for a spot.

    That all takes it toll on a kid's psyche of trying and trying. Hence, that makes them try harder when they don't get what they wanted. Although I really wished Hunter had taken her and she had cooperated more, in the long run, maybe she is striking a path through a denser wood that makes her fight more for what she will want in the future. Who knows?

    Ren

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    #101984 - 05/11/11 01:50 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren
    Hence, that makes them try harder when they don't get what they wanted. Although I really wished Hunter had taken her and she had cooperated more, in the long run, maybe she is striking a path through a denser wood that makes her fight more for what she will want in the future. Who knows?

    Ren


    I agree and would add that I think people are most likely to put for their best efforts when they're fulfilling their own visions (as opposed to someone else's vision for them). So a person with a vision to for how to create a great piece of software will probably be more motivated by his own vision than someone who's just working toward his boss's vision for the software.


    Edited by Val (05/11/11 02:00 PM)
    Edit Reason: Clarity

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    #101987 - 05/11/11 02:03 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    Registered: 07/10/10
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    Loc: South Texas
    Originally Posted By: Wren
    La Texican, I am wondering about your meds again.
    . I'll relocate this one here so as not to distract form the other thread. I get the cheap meds- margarita and a flintstone vitamin. laugh mamma's little happy pill is just for the Malibu bunch.

    I think it can only help matters if you help your kid's learn how to notice what makes them happy. Even when their life path changes course and they come up with wildly divergent goals from their previous ones, if they  know  how to recognize what situations/environments/friends make them happy, strong, and are good for them they'll be alright.
    _________________________
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    #101992 - 05/11/11 02:27 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Bostonian Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren
    Hi Bostonian,

    I want to say it is Rena Sobotnik. I actually talked to her. She had gone to Hunter for elementary and high school and wondered why no one from Hunter did anything extraordinary. So I didn't read the research, I heard from the researcher. I was on a committee for the NY Gifted and Talented Conference, which got dismantled....another story and why NYS gifted is a mess.

    Anyway, the study made an impact at Hunter as I was talking to a mother of a grade 1 student when dd was 4 and she spoke to me about the parental concerns that the study showed.

    You know that saying that if you don't know real sorrow, you never know real joy? Perhaps you just can't motivate yourself if the path is always cleared. Like DD told Hunter she didn't want to go, her OLSAT was awful for the K admissions, when the spots are wide open. So she had to take the OLSAT again and she got into the district G&T but not the citywide accelerated. She is learning the difference because I made her take the OLSAT again, so she could have a shot. And tried for the Special Music School since the first year she refused to do 3 out of the 4 things they asked her to do.

    Here is her anxious mother trying to get her the "right education". Then she gets a piano teacher last year who teaches at Special Music school who desperately wants her in and we try again. So the whole process.

    This year we do the OLSAT again and hope for a spot -- and I can push for a spot. DD knows she had to take the stupid test again to try for a spot.

    That all takes it toll on a kid's psyche of trying and trying. Hence, that makes them try harder when they don't get what they wanted. Although I really wished Hunter had taken her and she had cooperated more, in the long run, maybe she is striking a path through a denser wood that makes her fight more for what she will want in the future. Who knows?

    Ren


    That's her, except that the last name is spelled "Subotnik". Quoting the interesting profile of her http://www.apa.org/ed/schools/gifted/focus-researchers-subotnik.pdf

    'After Rena arrived at Hunter, my office became the site
    for her next research project. Each morning ‘I would arrive
    and two seventh grade boys would be at my conference
    table, poring through battered tin boxes of file cards,
    writing down the names and addresses of former
    students at the Hunter College Elementary School.
    Donna Shalala, the then President of Hunter College,
    had given Subotnik seed money of $5,000 to do a
    replication study of the Terman longitudinal studies
    with graduates of the Hunter College Elementary
    School, to see what they were doing now.

    Subotnik explained the rationale and findings for the
    study: “I used the graduates from 1949 to 1959 because
    those groups were most likely to have been admitted
    based on IQ. (The first class of HCES graduated in
    1949 and the class of 1960 and beyond for a while were
    admitted using various experimental criteria). The
    graduates were in their late 30’s to early 50’s. I used
    Terman’s mid life questionnaire as a model for my
    research instrument. I discovered that the graduates
    were not especially eminent or renowned, in spite of the
    high IQs and opportunities. There didn’t seem to be the
    kind of drive exhibited by these wonderful people to be
    significant contributors beyond their own community.

    ‘This research affected me in two ways. One was it
    made me realize viscerally that IQ was not a sufficient
    predictive variable in relation to eminence or great
    creative productivity. It also made me realize that I
    wanted to use whatever gifts I had to make a mark on
    the field.”'

    <end of excerpt>

    As self-appointed Defender of the (IQ) Faith, I will point out that no mention is made of a control group of children with similar IQs who did not go to Hunter. "Eminent or renowned" compared to what?


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    #101997 - 05/11/11 04:12 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    Well the problem with a control group is that you are talking about NYC. Do you take a control group from private school with similar IQs, public schools -- but how do you find out their IQ?

    With the Terman study, you had people who he had rejected in his group that went on and won Nobel prizes etc or something.

    Hunter would have rejected all kinds of kids, but no records remain. That is what you need. What happened to the rejected?

    Ren

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    #101998 - 05/11/11 04:33 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Val Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren
    Hunter would have rejected all kinds of kids, but no records remain. That is what you need. What happened to the rejected?

    Ren


    If I understand you correctly, there was no proper control group. If there's no proper control group, how could she draw conclusions from the study? The author of the paper can't claim she couldn't get the data. It's a real shame, but if it wasn't there, how can she say anything about the effects of a Hunter education with any confidence?

    Did Terman have proper controls?



    Edited by Val (05/11/11 04:36 PM)
    Edit Reason: Clarity

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    #102018 - 05/11/11 10:47 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
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    Read this and see if the digested stats here are what you need:
    http://depts.washington.edu/cscy/pdf/AllRiversLeadtotheSea.pdf
    This contains old data from the 1970's and early 1980's compiled for a dissertation in the 1990's.  It compares NATS non-accelerated national merit scholarship finalists, QUALS students who qualified for the early enterance program but who decided to proceed to highschool instead, and EEP'ers Early Entrance Program participants.  This document contains the resulting statistics from a follow-up eight page fourty-seven question quiestionaire.


    I retrieved the link that I mentioned above from the following link in a round about way.  I googled a document listed on the following page.
    http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/eric/faq/gt-early.html
    There are more studies listed at the bottom of this page. You may Google them by name to find out what they are.  The one which I described above  is "All Rivers Lead to the Sea" which can be found at the bottom of the Google results of a search for that phrase.  I don't mind looking up the other documents but I will wait until you review the first link.  I will wait to read the responses posted here to see if I'm on the right track for the intent of this thread.  
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    #102022 - 05/12/11 03:58 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    That was very resourceful La Tex. Thanks.

    I have been always been pro 1-2 years early college, since that was my experience. I noticed the girls thought it was important to live near their parents even after they were in the workforce.

    I think that might be key. My kid probably wouldn't consider that, as I didn't. And my issues were that I got too involved socially and partied way too early. And those are my concerns for DD. If she were more introverted, I would feel more confident. But that aint the case.

    Ren

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    #103005 - 05/22/11 05:05 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    kcab Offline
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    Came across an article in a news aggregator that perhaps fits in this thread:

    17 year old graduating from HS and Yale

    I thought it was a nice article and an interesting blending of traditional paths into something unusual. (Plus some non-traditional things, like one-on-one talking to HS teachers/faculty too.) Also, I had no idea that this particular program existed at Yale, or rather, hadn't thought about programs for non-traditional students being applicable to young students. (I know, Duh!) In fact, at one point I was tempted to post something about some schools being focused on graduation w/in 4 years, as I thought that might be less appealing for very young students. So much for that - glad to see this article.
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    #103047 - 05/22/11 01:49 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    thanks Kcab. Couple of points I noted, since we have had posts debate. I read it was his teacher in second grade that pushed the radical acceleration to high school, not the parents. I had mentioned when you have high end PG, usually the system takes care of it before the parents.

    And, since we talked about differences for college. He left Fairfield U, because it was too easy, and opted for Yale.

    And when you are extreme, it is a great outcome. When you are high end but not in those extremes, it is harder to get the programs necessary.

    Ren


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    #103049 - 05/22/11 02:21 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: CFK]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Originally Posted By: CFK


    Or could it be that things usually only work out this well (and you hear about it) when the schools are also involved and onboard? When it's not just the parents involved? Could there possibly be ten other extreme kids for everyone like this you hear about who were unable to get the radical acceleration they needed for this kind of outcome?

    I think you have too much faith in the "system".



    I agree. What I see in the posted article is a kid who had the good fortune have a highly supportive and aware family AND a school system that was flexible AND he lived in an area with college options. Great outcome for him... but sadly I know there are other kids out there with this kind of talent who aren't being recognized and aren't getting the adapted education that they need.


    Edited by passthepotatoes (05/22/11 02:43 PM)

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    #103052 - 05/22/11 04:37 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    You say could? But statiscally, does anyone know what 180 IQ looks like in decimal places? Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. You have that kid at Hunter. He is one in a school for gifted with 200 kids per year and 7th through 12th grade. They found one in the sample set where most highly gifted kids in a city of 8 million try for spots in 7th grade.

    Ren

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    #103056 - 05/22/11 04:59 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: passthepotatoes]
    kcab Offline
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    When I read the article, I see the parents playing a fairly large role. Sounds like they took the lead during 2nd grade, going the mentor route, and were fortunate enough to have a classroom teacher who agreed with them and helped advocate with the district.

    I'm not sure about about ratio of unaccommodated need to appropriately accommodated. I'm sure there are kids like this throughout the country who *don't* have newspaper articles written on them. Plus lots of other individual solutions to similar problems, some better than others. To me, the more relevant question was, how many other kids are there regionally who might benefit from some subset of these accommodations? And how many teachers are there who might read an article like that and think, "hmmm, maybe xyz could do something like this?"
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    #103057 - 05/22/11 05:00 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren
    You say could? But statiscally, does anyone know what 180 IQ looks like in decimal places? Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. You have that kid at Hunter. He is one in a school for gifted with 200 kids per year and 7th through 12th grade. They found one in the sample set where most highly gifted kids in a city of 8 million try for spots in 7th grade.

    Ren


    Was I the "you" in this post?
    I'm not sure I follow what you are saying. Are you wondering whether there are other students this gifted?
    Yes, there are. I do not believe all of them have been correctly identified or that their educational needs are met. Some kids who are very gifted look more like troublemakers or they misdiagnosed with disorders like autism to oppositional defiance.

    I'd suggest reading the Miraca Gross's book on highly gifted children. Also, the Davidson's book Genius Denied may also be helpful in providing understanding that it is not the case that the "system" always identifies and helps PG kids.

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    #103065 - 05/22/11 05:52 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    I think it was someone else that suggested there could be 10 others not identified for everyone that is.

    I have read both books Potatoes. And I still think when you have a "little man Tate", it is different than a PG kid with an IQ of 150-160. And that was my point.

    It would be interesting to find out about the GIGA society, I think that is their name and find out if they were all identified young.

    Ren

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    #103067 - 05/22/11 06:09 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    It seems that 180-190 would be one in a million depending on the ceilings. So you could have 300 in the US but that would be at each age level. Based on the curve, you could have 3-5 in each grade, statiscally, in the US.

    Ren

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    #103068 - 05/22/11 06:14 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren


    I have read both books Potatoes. And I still think when you have a "little man Tate", it is different than a PG kid with an IQ of 150-160. And that was my point.



    It sort of seems like you are assuming that if kids are super PG then everyone notices and it all works out. If you've read the two books I mentioned you will find several examples where that was not the case. It is not at all fair to assume that every "Little Man Tate" looks like a genius. In the wrong environment with the wrong supports he may just look like total brats or like they are nuts.

    If your example is Hunter - well yes, they I think we can feel pretty confident they will know it when they see it. If you are talking about a kid with the same kind of intelligence born to a working class minority family in a rural area or maybe a kid who is disabled in some way. Then, no it may well go without detection or without being addressed appropriately.

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    #103069 - 05/22/11 06:16 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren
    It seems that 180-190 would be one in a million depending on the ceilings. So you could have 300 in the US but that would be at each age level. Based on the curve, you could have 3-5 in each grade, statiscally, in the US.

    Ren


    I don't have a link handy, but hopefully someone else does. There is some thought that there are bubbles at both end of the normal bell curve. There certainly seem to be more children out at the right end of the curve than we'd expect statistically.

    At any rate, we probably should not talk in terms of those old IQ numbers because it is confusing as there are no accurate current tests that use that scale and no real way to differentiate that through IQ testing.

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    #103074 - 05/22/11 06:37 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: passthepotatoes]
    kcab Offline
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    Her use of the SB-LM is by far my least favorite part of Miraca Gross' research.

    But, I don't understand why you (Ren) think that this kid at Hunter is the only one at that level in NYC (in ? time period). I wouldn't base my judgement on frequency on news articles or recognition by a school, any school. There's also the assumption that all kids of that level are in a position to apply for that school at that grade. Or maybe I misunderstand you?

    I also think some of the approaches used by this family & school could be useful more often than actually happens.


    Edited by kcab (05/22/11 06:43 PM)
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    #103088 - 05/23/11 12:12 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: passthepotatoes]
    ColinsMum Offline
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    Originally Posted By: passthepotatoes
    It sort of seems like you are assuming that if kids are super PG then everyone notices and it all works out.

    Yes. In my personal opinion based on the gestalt of what I've read (though of course there isn't longitudinal research on this specific question, there couldn't be), a person probably only gets to be super-PG if their educational environment is suitable for them, in addition to their being who they are at birth. So I think Wren's is to some extent a self-fulfilling prophecy: if you went looking for, say, 16yos who were super-PG but hadn't been noticed, it's highly unlikely they'd have got a sufficiently suitable environment to enable them to still be identifiable as super-PG at that age, even if earlier they'd had the potential to be so.
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    #103089 - 05/23/11 01:46 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    According to what I read, there are tests for those kinds of ceilings. Just like Giga Society disdains the SB thinking too many kids are identified as PG and won't accept the results.

    If Harvard and MIT have programs for really young kids, which I assume means more than 1. You have kids like the one at Hunter and Columbia and this other kid at Fairfield and Yale, you can cover 5+ kids per year. Since they seem to hit the news, whether it is Kit Armstrong, or this girl who graduated from Stoneybrook at 14, about ten years ago, or the posting about the MD/PhD student at U of Chicago, who is all of 12 years old. The parents didn't push for this. No MD program is going to let you in because the parents push.

    Ren

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    #103090 - 05/23/11 02:46 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    ColinsMum Offline
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    Sorry, Ren, I read that post three times and I still don't see what you're saying. It seems as though you're still asserting that there are children so PG that, regardless of whether their parents take a role in it, the system will ensure that they get an appropriate education - is that so? But I don't think we've yet been pointed at even one child whose parents did not take an active role in the arranging the child's education, so we don't know what would have happened if they hadn't. Even if we had such a case it wouldn't prove that every child with that capability would be well served by the system if the parents didn't act, because any negative cases, where the parents did not act and the child was not well served, are invisible.
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    #103091 - 05/23/11 02:57 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    ColinsMum Offline
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    PS You do realise that the Giga Society is a spoof, right?
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    #103095 - 05/23/11 04:40 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: ColinsMum]
    Iucounu Offline
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    I can't make up my mind whether they're a spoof or just verrrry selective.
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    #103098 - 05/23/11 05:00 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Iucounu]
    ColinsMum Offline
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    If in doubt, read the first piece of work by Giga Society members - someone who can't should give it to someone who can, and see how many lines in they get before they start laughing. Alternatively, or as well, read this. Quite good though.

    (If everyone else is having a laugh [too] feel free - I've never been good at counting levels of bluff!)


    Edited by ColinsMum (05/23/11 05:03 AM)
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    #103128 - 05/23/11 07:32 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    I have to admit that their website has declined seriously, though they were on the list of actual high IQ societies and were not on the defunct list -- of which there were many. And their members are in other IQ societies, like Dany Provost is in the Omega, which is only 1 in a million level.

    When I first saw the Giga a couple of years ago, they listed the 7 members and you could look them up and they were all googleable and known to have IQs in the 200+ range. I checked and someone commented about Andreas Gunnarsson, his comment on his website was "best viewed with a browser" -which I think is hilarious. Scott Durgin is a high tech guy.

    Ren

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    #103130 - 05/23/11 07:36 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
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    In looking some of this stuff up, has anyone read "The Outsiders"?

    A book about the personalities of really high IQ people. It came out from the Promethius society 15 years ago or something. Just curious.

    Also read about William Sidis. Which is really sad. But goes with the story that some psychiatrists are not crazy, but the children of psychiatrists always are. Was told that by the child of a pyschiatrist.

    Ren

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    #103134 - 05/23/11 07:39 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren


    Since they seem to hit the news, whether it is Kit Armstrong, or this girl who graduated from Stoneybrook at 14, about ten years ago, or the posting about the MD/PhD student at U of Chicago, who is all of 12 years old. The parents didn't push for this. No MD program is going to let you in because the parents push.

    Ren


    I think your flawed assumption here is that if a kid is "super PG" they'd be in the news and you'd know them. I'd say that you are wrong that all kids end up in the media some individuals and families prefer to be out of the spotlight. I would also say you may be overestimating your ability to monitor every article that appears.

    As far as the student who entered the MD PHD program at Chicago I believe this is the person you are referring to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sho_Yano I don't think it is at all accurate to say the plan for college entrance came from his school as he was homeschooled by his mother.

    From that Wikipedia article: "According to him, he owes much of his success to his mother, who noticed his superior intellectual capabilities at an early age and helped encourage and motivate him through rigorous academic enrichment. His mother also homeschooled him through the 12th grade, saying she felt other students his age wouldn't be as interested in their studies."

    It sounds Wren like there is a theme in your posts that real PG kids are recognized and accommodated by their schools. If they aren't well then the parents must have been pushy?

    Here's a video about the Chicago family (both children are prodigies) http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/genius-siblings-92735089.html


    Edited by passthepotatoes (05/23/11 07:45 AM)

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    #103139 - 05/23/11 07:55 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Bostonian Offline
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    Originally Posted By: Wren

    Also read about William Sidis. Which is really sad. But goes with the story that some psychiatrists are not crazy, but the children of psychiatrists always are. Was told that by the child of a pyschiatrist.


    You have a habit of making generalizations such as the one above (which taken literally, is certainly false) without any supporting evidence.
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    #103148 - 05/23/11 09:43 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    passthepotatoes Offline
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    Posts: 687
    Wren,
    If you really want to understand this topic, I'd suggest rather than trolling obscure (and sometimes parody) websites, that you'd be better off looking to more current and substantive sources of information. The Nation Deceived report would be one place to start.

    As a parent of a PG kid who has been radically accelerated I personally don't find it at all helpful to have examples of people from seventy five years ago cited as proof of any child's doomed future. When people say stuff like this I wonder what they are trying to say to the parents of super PG kids - you are screwed? too bad your kid was born? no matter what you are going to screw it up? your kid might seem okay to you now but later you'll see they will end up crazy? In addition to this being totally inaccurate it is not at all helpful.

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    #103151 - 05/23/11 09:49 AM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    Wren Online   content
    Member

    Registered: 01/14/08
    Posts: 1584
    OK, I am so wrong. My opinions are bogus.

    Done.

    Ren

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    #103224 - 05/23/11 09:14 PM Re: Rapid Acceleration [Re: Wren]
    La Texican Offline
    Member

    Registered: 07/10/10
    Posts: 1777
    Loc: South Texas
    <insert my opinions here>
    ok.  We're still in the rapid acceleration thread, right?

    Originally Posted By: wren
    You say could?  But statiscally, does anyone know what 180 IQ looks like in decimal places?  Maybe there are, maybe there aren't.  You have that kid at Hunter.  He is one in a school for gifted with 200 kids per year and 7th through 12th grade.  They found one in the sample set where most highly gifted kids in a city of 8 million try for spots in 7th grade.  

    Ren


    I thought iq #s weren't very good at differentiating above and beyond a certain point.  And with everybody getting different tests and everybody's "#" being more of a range , well.  I don't really have a point to make.

    Lucounu, did you click on the test at the bottom?  I'm scared.  Not of the results.  I read the page and now I'm scared that if I click the link I'll find and AFV scary webpage where a ghoul jumps on the screen and says "boo", and it's too close to bed time for that.  

    Originally Posted By: ColinsMum
    Even if we had such a case it wouldn't prove that every child with that capability would be well served by the system if the parents didn't act, because any negative cases, where the parents did not act and the child was not well served, are invisible.


    That's true.  You're really not going to be able to make a survey or use math to tell you what's the best choice you need to make.  You can't get all your answers from someone else's story.  You individual you.  But you can talk it over with all your close friends and strangers here.

       
    _________________________
    Youth lives by personality, age lives by calculation. -- Aristotle on a calendar

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